Rangefinder Composing

Sorry if this topic has been discussed a lot, but I cant seem to find much info.
I recently came across an old Kiev 3a with Jupiter f2/5cm in an antique store with original leather case and box with manual and purchase papers and inside the camera was original spool and brass film canister all in perfect condition, except for the meter was dead. Anyhow the price tag was $48 and I couldn't get my cash on the counter fast enough.
This is my first RF, I have just run through one roll of film (hp5 in d76) and it all seems to be working OK. Lost a couple of potential frames from excessive spacing and most were over exposed (probably my fault leaning towards over exposure). I like the speed and ease of use compared to a SLR, some shots I was able to just get in with the RF I would of missed completely with a SLR.
But my main problem was composing, Im not sure how to compensate for not looking through the lens. Does this become less of a problem the further away the subject is? I usually when composing work my corners and have the subject off center towards the thirds. Should I work from the center out? not sure any advice would be appreciated. Mostly Im aiming too high and too far to one side or the other.
This is typical of my problem a nothing shot, but camera was pointing too high up and too far to the right.....some are too far to the left.

This one wasn't too far out, didnt have much time, maybe I work better under pressure...ha

I have a few rangefinder cameras, a couple are the Kiev / Zorki / Fed variety. There should not be a problem composing at distances. What I would suggest is while the camera is empty, open the back and tape over the film gate with Scotch tape, making a small ground-glass for viewing. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter (B or T setting) and focus it on several different subjects at different distances and compare what you see thru the viewfinder with what you see on the temporary ground-glass/tape (you may need a magnifier to get a good look). This should tell you if your viewfinder is a good representation of what the lens will see. Hope this makes sense.

What ransel said. Parallax has a much more drastic effect at close distances.
I wouldn't expect problems at the distances those pictures were made at.

Of course the rangefinder might not line up well...

When you have parallax lines or adjustment, they only pertain to objects at the subject focus plane. So you can avoid cutting people's heads off.

If the distance, such as a slim sliver of sky is important to the composition, then ignore the parallax lines and look at infinity where the lines were when you were focused at infinity (since infinity doesn't move as you focus closer.)

ransel said:

I have a few rangefinder cameras, a couple are the Kiev / Zorki / Fed variety. There should not be a problem composing at distances. What I would suggest is while the camera is empty, open the back and tape over the film gate with Scotch tape, making a small ground-glass for viewing. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter (B or T setting) and focus it on several different subjects at different distances and compare what you see thru the viewfinder with what you see on the temporary ground-glass/tape (you may need a magnifier to get a good look). This should tell you if your viewfinder is a good representation of what the lens will see. Hope this makes sense.

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ransel said:

I have a few rangefinder cameras, a couple are the Kiev / Zorki / Fed variety. There should not be a problem composing at distances. What I would suggest is while the camera is empty, open the back and tape over the film gate with Scotch tape, making a small ground-glass for viewing. Put the camera on a tripod, open the shutter (B or T setting) and focus it on several different subjects at different distances and compare what you see thru the viewfinder with what you see on the temporary ground-glass/tape (you may need a magnifier to get a good look). This should tell you if your viewfinder is a good representation of what the lens will see. Hope this makes sense.

Click to expand...

John Koehrer said:

What ransel said. Parallax has a much more drastic effect at close distances.
I wouldn't expect problems at the distances those pictures were made at.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that, I will check the camera, its most likely just me getting use the view finder (use to focusing with my left eye and stuff), just wanted to check.

Bill Burk said:

Of course the rangefinder might not line up well...

When you have parallax lines or adjustment, they only pertain to objects at the subject focus plane. So you can avoid cutting people's heads off.

If the distance, such as a slim sliver of sky is important to the composition, then ignore the parallax lines and look at infinity where the lines were when you were focused at infinity (since infinity doesn't move as you focus closer.)

Click to expand...

That make sense, thanks for the advise, little techniques will help.
Better to ask a few dumb questions early on than to continue making the same mistakes.

Any tips on focusing/composing at portrait view? Seems to be extra difficult for some reason.

Well, viewfinder in the Kiev was designed about 1934/35, so it's a bit dismal by today's standards. The rangefinder is second to none. Look for an accesory viewfinder to go in the shoe, it helps and the parallax will be mostly vertical. If you use glasses it's hard to see the borders of the camera's vf. Also, take your time until you become familiar.
Very nice find!

Second is what RF photography is all about. Practice and keep this as the tune. To me second one is framed and executed perfectly.

I also noticed what with Keiv I was getting more affected by parallax, not so much with FED-2. Go figure...

E. von Hoegh said:

Well, viewfinder in the Kiev was designed about 1934/35, so it's a bit dismal by today's standards. The rangefinder is second to none. Look for an accesory viewfinder to go in the shoe, it helps and the parallax will be mostly vertical. If you use glasses it's hard to see the borders of the camera's vf. Also, take your time until you become familiar.
Very nice find!

Click to expand...

Yes was a nice find, looks like it was well kept and hardly used.
I do have a hotshoe view lying around somewhere, will try, but I would like to keep the RF as simple as possible for street photography use. Have plenty of other cameras to use for when speed is less important.
I am bespectacled, which makes framing worse the longer I take.
Think while having a play, found a major error in my use, Im (maybe cause the view window is so small and I ware glasses) tending to tilt the camera to see the framing and not keeping the window square to my eye. I need to work on it.
Also, cause Im too tall I have to remember to bend the knees....or walk in the gutter.

Edit: Tried without glasses and can see the frame clearly, thanks, would never occurred to me that wearing glasses was such a problem. Now I have to work out a way of taking my glasses off without losing them.....

Yes, with glasses that vf becomes a challenge. Tilting the camera will cause exactly the trouble you describe.
Try the acc. viefinder, with a bit of practice it's very fast - much faster than peering around & then getting a poorly framed picture.
I not only use glasses but am left eyed, when I must frame with the camera's vf I keep the camera still and move my head around to see the framing, using the rf patch as a reference to keep the camera still. Speed will come with practice.

A lot of rangefinders have built in paralex correction, but the Kiev, like the Leica, does not , I don't have a Kiev but for my Leica iiic I use a Voightlander Turnit view finder that covers 35/50/100 and 135 lenses and has paralex correction built in, so I use that for close up work, the other way with no parralex correction or marking built into the viewfinder, such as your Kiev, is when working close to a subject is to avoid the edges of the frame, this is a bit rough and ready, but compose your pictures slightly towards the center of the frame and you pretty much avoid problems, I have used nothing but rangefinders for a lot of years and have been doing this when caught out without my turnit for ever and it works well, there a a few external viewfinders around from the 40/s and 50/s when nearly all German 35mm and MF cameras were viewfinder/rangefinders also, like you I where glasses and find that I for many RF cameras I can see the image sharper without my glasses on, I tend to push them up onto my forehead when using the cameras, then pulling them down when finished, with my Leica, which has a tiny viewfinder, with the rangefinder window next door viewfinder adjusts for your eyesight for the rangefinder, and many FSU cameras had a lever to adjust the viewfinder for your eyesight, and many rangefinders I can see better without my specs than with them on

If it is anything like a Zorki it is not a Albada or bright frame finder, so your eye position strongly influences the framing. My solution was to use a better camera.

ic-racer said:

If it is anything like a Zorki it is not a Albada or bright frame finder, so your eye position strongly influences the framing. My solution was to use a better camera.

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It's a Galilean finder, like most all integrated rf/vf systems, and it's quite good considering when it was designed. Leica had nothing like it until the M3, and nobody has had a better rangefinder.

Nothing wrong with the camera, just user error.
I bought a lanyard for my glasses and my vision isnt so bad I cant focus. No excuses now.

A "better" camera would only be wasted on my at best average photography and I might become deluded in thinking the right brand of camera suddenly will make my photography great......like so many.