Random small splotches on negatives

I am getting these random small splotches in my negatives, particularly noticeable in areas like sky and out-of-focus areas with minimal changes in texture. Unfortunately it shows up fairly prominently on faces as well.

Any ideas what these could be? I've had them in a number of negatives now. I typically use Delta 100 or 400. Develop in DD-X by their standards. Pre-wash, develop (lately in distilled water, but this doesn't seem to have helped), water stop, fix for about 8 minutes, wash for 10 minutes, then distilled water rise. Hang dry.

I don't have a darkroom, so I scan. I cannot see the splotches on my negatives, but I don't have much of a magnifier, and as you can see, they're small. It doesn't seem like a digital artifact to me (I wouldn't expect that to be random like this). Plus, some rolls are fine.

Any ideas?

Are you pre-washing with distilled water or tap water? Since this is a positive the spots should show up as black on the negative. How old is the film and how was it stored? If you are using tap water for pre-rinse try distilled instead or "NO" pre-rinse at all. If that doesn't help look into the film storing issue.

I would get a loupe. Also all you need to make a good contact print is a pane of glass, a light bulb, and a tray. Oh and night.

I always suspect scanning. I'm old school.
Any glass between the negative and the scanner lens can be a challenge. Anything that looks like a ring is suspect.

The only thing I would change in your film processing would be to add a drop of photo flo per 300mm of distilled water for your final rinse.

John Wiegerink said:

Are you pre-washing with distilled water or tap water? Since this is a positive the spots should show up as black on the negative. How old is the film and how was it stored? If you are using tap water for pre-rinse try distilled instead or "NO" pre-rinse at all. If that doesn't help look into the film storing issue.

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I pre-wash with tap. I’ll try forgoing the pre-wash—I was just reading it’s really not important anyway. I’m just used to doing it since college.

Film is all fresh and well within its timeframe. Stored in a cool dry location, but also stored for a few months, but that isn’t unusual and years ago when I didn’t have this problem, it could take me a few months to develop as well.

mshchem said:

I would get a loupe. Also all you need to make a good contact print is a pane of glass, a light bulb, and a tray. Oh and night.

I always suspect scanning. I'm old school.
Any glass between the negative and the scanner lens can be a challenge. Anything that looks like a ring is suspect.

The only thing I would change in your film processing would be to add a drop of photo flo per 300mm of distilled water for your final rinse.

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I was suspecting the scanner at first as well, but with so many small and random splotches, and not consistently seeing them, I don’t think it’s the scanner.

A contact print won’t help me see anything with regards to this issue. But your idea is a good one for me to be able to make them in the first place! I hadn’t really thought of it.

I’ll try the photo flo as well.

I do sometimes throw different films together. That require the same development time. Could that cause any issues?

brent8927 said:

I do sometimes throw different films together. That require the same development time. Could that cause any issues?

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Nope

brent8927 said:

I pre-wash with tap. I’ll try forgoing the pre-wash—I was just reading it’s really not important anyway. I’m just used to doing it since college.

Film is all fresh and well within its timeframe. Stored in a cool dry location, but also stored for a few months, but that isn’t unusual and years ago when I didn’t have this problem, it could take me a few months to develop as well.

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In my opinion there is nothing wrong with pre-soak before development and I used to do it also. Now I only pre-soak for pyro and pyrocat negatives. When you are trying to pin down a developing culprit you have to start at the most likely cause and then work your way down the chain until you find it. Don't try and do two or three changes in you process at one time hoping to find the cause or you'll never ever be sure of what really was the culprit. You have to pinpoint it just so as not to have it happen again. Might cost two or three practice rolls of Delta, but that's better than messing up that once in a lifetime shot of something special. As far as doing two different films at the same time? I don't do it. I have done two rolls of the same emulsion at the same time, I usually do just one 120 roll at a time. I'm sure you'll weed the problem out.

brent8927 said:

I was suspecting the scanner at first as well, but with so many small and random splotches, and not consistently seeing them, I don’t think it’s the scanner.

A contact print won’t help me see anything with regards to this issue. But your idea is a good one for me to be able to make them in the first place! I hadn’t really thought of it.

I’ll try the photo flo as well.

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Nothing more pure than a proper contact print. Nothing in the way. Get an excellent (doesn't have to be expensive) magnifier and you will be amazed.
You can scan a contact print and get amazing results.

I really doubt it's your processing, unless you have some weird contamination like oil, silicone lube etc. Pure water for final rinse puts you ahead of a lot of folks without access or the means.

John Wiegerink said:

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with pre-soak before development and I used to do it also. Now I only pre-soak for pyro and pyrocat negatives. When you are trying to pin down a developing culprit you have to start at the most likely cause and then work your way down the chain until you find it. Don't try and do two or three changes in you process at one time hoping to find the cause or you'll never ever be sure of what really was the culprit. You have to pinpoint it just so as not to have it happen again. Might cost two or three practice rolls of Delta, but that's better than messing up that once in a lifetime shot of something special. As far as doing two different films at the same time? I don't do it. I have done two rolls of the same emulsion at the same time, I usually do just one 120 roll at a time. I'm sure you'll weed the problem out.

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I agree on these points. I've recently stopped pre soak unless I'm trying to warm the tank. Pre wash at worse just dilutes the developer a bit. You need to find access to a high magnification loupe to see if the artifacts are on the film. If they are, you have a detective hunt.

I've gleaned from reading posts like this that Ilford films can be a bit finicky when it comes to pre-soaking. Either eliminate it completely or make sure you soak at least three minutes before developing. FWIW, I pre-soak, 3-5 minutes, before development. No problems, but I use Kodak films...

Storage may also be a culprit here... too hot for too long or moisture condensing on the film then drying might do this. Try fresh film and see if the artifacts appear.

Developer mixed from dry chemicals and used too soon can have tiny undissolved particles in it, which cause small areas of overdevelopment. Make sure your developer is well-mixed and has had time to dissolve fully.

That's about all I can think of at the moment.

Good luck,

Doremus

Possible moisture from being frozen and thawing? Looks a bit like a problem I had with photoflo mixed wrong.

In The Darkroom Cookbook, Anchell talked about "chemical defects" and how they can form within the very first minute of development. His solution is to agitate the first 60 seconds of development, something I had previously never done. I had been seeing spotting very similar to the sample you posted with FP4 and Pyrocat-HD, and after I started agitating the first full minute, it seems to have gone away. 16" and 20" sample prints show nice and clear. Definitely worth a try. BTW, I always pre-soak.

If it's 120, it looks similar to the issues caused by it being in a humid environment with the paper in contact with the film. This can also happen if the film is frozen and is taken out of the foil wrapper before it comes to room temp.

Thanks everyone for your input.

I did some more searching. It sounds like quite a few people noted similar effects, though most often with Pan-F 50. It sounds like the main culprit was likely moisture build-up due to prolonged storage post-exposure, or possibly the backing paper. It doesn't appear anyone figured out the definitive cause.

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/strange-marks-all-over-on-negative.479531/
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/annoying-white-spots-all-over-my-negatives.483722/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/problem-white-dots-pan-f-50.153688/
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/black-spots-on-pan-f-120-cause.79765/page-3

I have finished scanning most of the rolls now and a number of rolls developed in that same session (I had six rolls in one tank, four in the other--all using concentrate from the same developer & fixer--both of which were liquid concentrates) had no marks on them and a few did. I think that points away from chemistry or the scanner being the cause, and more likely the film itself or storage/treatment of the particular rolls contributed. There are some rolls that I know sat around for a number of months that are fine and some that aren't, but it does seem that all the ones that didn't sit on the shelf undeveloped that long came out fine.

It is possible some of the film had been frozen as well. Typically I don't freeze B&W film, but I did buy too much film about a year ago and I might have stuck a few in there when I was worried I wouldn't finish enough by their expiration.

Going forward I'll try not to let film sit too long. Hopefully that'll prevent this issue going forward.

I've been developing film since, well, a long time, the only time I've ever had circles on film was with an improvised glass carrier in the enlarger.

I order film in the winter and store in a refrigerator.

Transport and storage issues will be hard to pin down.

brent8927 said:

I pre-wash with tap. I’ll try forgoing the pre-wash—I was just reading it’s really not important anyway. I’m just used to doing it since college.

Film is all fresh and well within its timeframe. Stored in a cool dry location, but also stored for a few months, but that isn’t unusual and years ago when I didn’t have this problem, it could take me a few months to develop as well.

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This post is the one that threw me off after I had just ask how the film was stored and how fresh or old it was??? Now, finding out it had been frozen puts a whole new light on the possible cause of the problem. and with what you now say about storage I think we/you have found the source of your troubles.

John Wiegerink said:

This post is the one that threw me off after I had just ask how the film was stored and how fresh or old it was??? Now, finding out it had been frozen puts a whole new light on the possible cause of the problem. and with what you now say about storage I think we/you have found the source of your troubles.

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Sorry. To clarify, the film was all fresh. Stored in cool/dry location on a dark shelf after exposure. I had possibly frozen some (sorry--not very confident/specific!) of the film prior to exposure. I had purchased quite a bit of film and work changed to the extent I didn't think I'd be able to shoot much film over the next year, so I believe I threw a few rolls in the freezer. The reason would've been that even though I expected to use them by the expiration date a few years later, that there was still a small chance I wouldn't be able to. If I did put the film in the freezer, it was a few rolls, and they didn't stay long because I shot more than I expected. They would've been defrosted at room temperature.

All this happened so long ago it's hard to remember anything with certainty. But there is one thing I do now remember just now after trying to clarify the storage issues, which could be yet another (or primary?) culprit! I remember buying a lot of film before a long trip to Yosemite a little over one year ago. I haven't had to purchase any new film since then. On the trip, I had most of the film stored in my cooler (was trying to keep it from getting too hot, and my pack wasn't big enough to fit everything). Unfortunately the ice melted faster than I expected, the the freezer bags didn't actually stay waterproof. Nor did the wrapping of the Ilford roll film. They all got soaked. I opened a couple rolls and it seemed like the water didn't penetrate that far into the rolls I opened. I did a google search and a few people had mentioned dropping the film in lakes, etc., and still using them. So I figured why throw away 15+ rolls of film. I took a test roll and it seemed fine. But perhaps a few rolls were soaked more thoroughly. The cooler water wouldn't have been grossly/noticeably dirty/contaminated, but there probably would've been small amounts of dirt/particulate.

So, aside from proving I'm not very scientific/careful with my storing/developing process, I think we've established one of three likely causes- film getting soaked pre-exposure, possibly being frozen pre-exposure, and perhaps waiting too long to develop the exposed film. I don't think there's anyway to know for certain what the cause was.

Going forward, I'll just avoid dunking my film, freezing when possible, and not waiting too long to develop.

Whoa, after hearing that "dunking film" part, I don't know about anyone else here, but I need not scratch my head anymore. Excellent description of how not to have a perfect negative. If you have any "dunked" film left I think, if it were me, it's best to use on something that means nothing. Be careful and have fun. JW

brent8927 said:

They all got soaked.

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And that would be the cause of the splotches. Even rolls that didn't get actually wet, but that were near those that did would likely show the splotching. Freezing film, whether before or after exposure, is not usually a cause of this on its own. Film can be frozen, defrosted, shot, and processed without any problem. But it needs to be frozen in an airtight container and then defrosted completely without being opened.