Random horizontal scratches/lines on negative

Dear Ziyangli et al,

6 degrees F variation is nowhere near enough to cause reticulation in a modern film emulsion from ILFORD, KODAK or FUJI...

Its always very, very difficult to tell without the neg, but they do not look like typical loading scratches as they are not linear* but nor does it look like reticulation, what it actually looks like is dry scuff damage on the back coat that was hard enough to damage the coating and allow chemical lifting.

* although we have obviously seen scratches move in a random none linear fashion, usually caused by very fine sand or grit being rolled by the darkslide, and as the particle is not round it tracks.

So my question is, where did you load or unload the film ? and could it have been laid directly into contact on any surface. ?

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

I agree with Simon G..... 6F variation in temperature is not enough to experience reticulation. I have developed many 4x5 and 8x10 sheets not keeping the temperatures the same and never experienced reticulation. If I had to guess, the T differences between developer and stop bath (water) have and between fixed and final wash been up to 10F and I never experienced an issue. The fact that I am actually guessing at the T difference will tell you how much attention I pay to keeping the temperatures close to each other. The temperature (T) I truly keep an eagle eye on is developer temperature. I also agree with the suggestion to let all chemical reach room temperature and simply process at that temperature (provided it is not too hot or too cold),

Simon R Galley said:

Dear Ziyangli et al,

6 degrees F variation is nowhere near enough to cause reticulation in a modern film emulsion from ILFORD, KODAK or FUJI...

Its always very, very difficult to tell without the neg, but they do not look like typical loading scratches as they are not linear* but nor does it look like reticulation, what it actually looks like is dry scuff damage on the back coat that was hard enough to damage the coating and allow chemical lifting.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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I thought it was reticulation at first, but then after seeing your post and thinking about it the whole night, it might not be reticulation anymore.. The temperatures are pretty consistent. From what I know, the only way to get reticulation is to heat the developer and cool the fixer. And my temperatures do not differ that much. So then what is it??!!?

The film comes out of the refrigerator in a ziplock bag, and I take it in the darkroom. I always put a clean piece of fabric or some kind of cloth on the table to avoid dust or particles. And then I open the box, count however many sheets I need, take it out, close the box, and put the film on the top of the box. I then take each film holder and just load it in. I clean the holders every time before loading. From what I see, there's nothing that would cause scratches..

-ZiYang


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, or I never saw any reticulation going in lines.

It is not to be expected either:
Reticulation is the result of a strong shrinkage of emulsion. And as emulsion has no direction of preference for schrinkage, ruptures will emerge at a rather equidistant manner, forming sort of mazes.


However a very brittle coating, or material in general, bent sharply in one direction may show such ruptures.

ziyanglai said:

The problem came when I started doing this at home.

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I think you answered yourself . What is different at home? Water for sure, and maybe temperature control.

darkosaric said:

I think you answered yourself . What is different at home? Water for sure, and maybe temperature control.

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There are so many factors!! Couldn't figure out whats wrong.. Even the chemicals are different!!


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Dear Ziyanglai,

You are most welcome to send the film to us for examination, the first thing we do is look at it under an electron microscope.

Whilst never say never, I cannot see anyway that this could be a manufacturing defect, I have checked our QC database and we have no outstanding justified QC's on any ILFORD Sheet film at this time.

If you wish to return it we will hopefully be able to identify the cause and let you know.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

MattKing said:

You don't need temperature control equipment. You just need the patience to let all your chemicals and your wash water come to room temperature and then work at that temperature.

You will have to adjust your developing time to take into account your room temperature, but that is easy.

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+1.

AgX said:

, or I never saw any reticulation going in lines.

It is not to be expected either:
Reticulation is the result of a strong shrinkage of emulsion. And as emulsion has no direction of preference for schrinkage, ruptures will emerge at a rather equidistant manner, forming sort of mazes.

Click to expand...

+1.

darkosaric said:

I think you answered yourself . What is different at home? Water for sure, and maybe temperature control.

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+1. Always a good start here.

Neal said:

Dear ziyanglai,

I think you might be scratching them when you load or unload your film holder.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

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Bingo! I see nothing so far that indicates this might not be the first place to investigate. Are you loading right out of the freezer, not allowing the film to warm to room T? Have you inspected the film holders for foreign matter? Have they been used by others? Simply load as usual (yours) and tray process a test sheet in the same holders to confirm, reject or further test. There is much to be resolved and learned here, before sending off to Ilford.

OK. So I went to my local store and talked to a guy, and he told me that it doesn't seem like reticulation either. Reticulation will have a more random pattern and he have not seen one in many, many years. One thing I forgot to mention. This is important. ***The HC-110 expired about 4 years ago, and someone on this forum told me it was still good ... So anyway, he suggested me to keep the temperature as precise as possible and get new chemicals (which I did not buy..) and run the tests again, so I did. And the results is kinda freaking me out right now.. Basically here is the summary:

*positive means scratches/cracks on film, negative means no scratches/cracks on film

A. Before home developing:
Open tank, D-76 1+1, Kodak Non Hardening fixer 68F, water rinse with stop : negative, film was perfect, just like results from a lab

B. Started home development:
Close tank, HC-110 1+7, Kodak Hardening fixer, 68-75F, water rinse as stop: positive
Open tank, HC-110 1+7, Kodak Hardening fixer, 68-75F, water rinse as stop : positive
Close tank, HC-110 1+7, TF-4 fixer, 68-75F, water rinse as stop : positive
Close tank, Ilford Perceptol 1+3, TF-4 fixer, 68-75F, water rinse as stop : positive

C. Came home from lab, did test again:
Open tank, HC-110 1+7, TF-4 fixer, 63-72F : negative, no scratches/cracks
Open tank, Ilford Perceptol 1+3, TF-4 fixer, 63-72F : negative, no scratches/cracks

What was different between A and B?
2. No water rinse between dev. and fix
3. Water temp. was same around 72F, just added about 3-5 cubes of ice into developer and fixer about 15 mins before developing.

I should also note that when first started home development, chemicals were around 68-70F, water was around 72-75F.

Someone wants to interpret the results and explain this to me? It is really annoying and freaking me out a little right now..

What dilution were you using for HC110?
The most commonly used dilution is dilution B, which is one part syrup + 31 parts water. You only use 1 + 7 if you mix up an intermediate stock solution, which doesn't make sense unless you are using high volumes.

MattKing said:

What dilution were you using for HC110?
The most commonly used dilution is dilution B, which is one part syrup + 31 parts water. You only use 1 + 7 if you mix up an intermediate stock solution, which doesn't make sense unless you are using high volumes.

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I make the stock solution, I don't use it straight from the bottle. and then Dil. B 1+7 from the stock solution. 1 part stock, 7 parts water.

Those lines are definitely scratches. Pattern analysis of a minute or two proves that.

Can't see a bad pattern but

a- handle negatives more carefully
b- try and keep successive baths and wash at minium temperature change
c- use plain water stop
d- don't use hardner the modern films are prehardened sufficiently
e- for archival permenance you might want to use hypo clear

Sorry

Why not try just processing a sheet straight from the box. You can remove a few variables such as film scratches in loading or removing from holder. Process with lights on and container open to see if you are putting scratches in it during processing. If you use a film hanger for development sliding the film in or out across it may produce scratches if holder is bent possibly. Hc110 even expired in a sealed bottle lasts a long while but anything can happen during storage, you should know the risks of buying anything expired and not fault the seller. You should also not just throw ice cubes into developer to cool it it will dilute the concentration. A double container with water and ice outside and your developer in a smaller container inside is much better. Be more careful of your temps.

Ugghhhh... I'm having this issue again. After this happened 3 months ago, I shot less and less B&W and more color and those were processed by a local lab. Today I've decided to get back to home developing and got the same problem. This time, instead of 4x5, I processed a roll of 35mm SFX 200 and a roll of 120 PanF 50.

No problem on the 35mm SFX, those weird lines showed up again on the 120 but less visible than the 4x5 from 3 months ago.

Well, at least I know that chemical isn't the issue since I got fresh chemicals (Ilfosol S, Hypam fixer, nothing else) and clearly isn't a film issue. So now I'm thinking maybe it's the water? (I have a water softener at home). Any ideas?

P.S. anyone lives in the Chandler, AZ zip code 85226 area?

Simon R Galley said:

Dear Ziyanglai,

You are most welcome to send the film to us for examination, the first thing we do is look at it under an electron microscope.

Whilst never say never, I cannot see anyway that this could be a manufacturing defect, I have checked our QC database and we have no outstanding justified QC's on any ILFORD Sheet film at this time.

If you wish to return it we will hopefully be able to identify the cause and let you know.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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I know this was from a long time ago, but can I still send the film in for checking? I'm experiencing this issue again...

If you think you have a problem and want it checked out by Harman, just send it to them with a covering letter,

(you don't need to make a special arrangement or ask their permission)

pdeeh said:

If you think you have a problem and want it checked out by Harman, just send it to them with a covering letter,

(you don't need to make a special arrangement or ask their permission)

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Noted. Thanks for the info.

Has anyone resolved this issue? I've noticed this is on Ilford film, FP4. I use PMK and am strict about temperature, keeping all chemicals within 1.5 degrees of each other. I have used PMK on other films and not noticed this, following the same steps and development processes; it seems to be an Ilford specific issue.

PMK
Ilford FP4 4x5 sheets

I will notice about 3-4 lines running from one end of the film to the other, almost evenly spaced, one above the next. This is NOT reticulation, I have experienced that years ago and the pattern is different and random, very much unlike this. Also, as pointed out in an earlier post, the "Scratches" are on the base side, not the emulsion side, which rules out reticulation.