RA4 processing

pentaxuser · Feb 18, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
As for mixing properly, I follow the Kodak instructions on the bottle to make RA-RT developer replenisher for the RA4 process.

PE

I believe this answers my question but just so I can be sure I think you are saying that if I followed the instructions on the bottle which is developer/replenisher then I am good to go. This answer and what I am now about to say will be of interest primarily to BMbikerider but it would explain why when I looked again at my kit I could find no starter. I now strongly suspect that I never bought any under the correct assumption that it was not needed.

Thanks P.E.
BMbikerider, let us know how you get on with the retailer. I believe it is the same one I bought my Kodak kit from several years ago and he has always struck me as someone who would be concerned if a product he sells has confusing instructions with it which might cause users to go wrong. All my dealings with him suggests that he is selling the Tetenal kit on the basis that it is perfectly suitable for home users. Just a pity about the confusing instructions.

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2018

My kits come in 3 parts and I add them to the amount of water stated on the bottle in the order given and then dilute to the amount of water stated, either 5L or 10L.

PE

pentaxuser · Feb 18, 2018

Thanks once again,PE

pentaxuser

btaylor · Feb 18, 2018

I've been following this with a bit of interest because I also process RA4 paper. I would not get too upset with your dealer, they are just passing on the product thinking it's fine-- Tetenal has a fine reputation after all. But clearly something has gone wrong here either in the instructions or the actual kit itself. I would return it to the dealer as defective and let them know the saga of failure, surely if they are reputable they will want to know if there is a problem with the chemistry-- you will be helping both them and other potential users.
In my business I greatly appreciate customers who inform us that something has gone wrong, without their feedback I would not be aware of the problem so I can get it fixed.

mshchem · Feb 18, 2018

It is definitely confusing. All the Kodak chemistries that I use C-41 and RA-4. Are designed to make REPLENISHER. To make working tank solutions you get into the starters, further dilution etc. It can be very confusing . Kodak doesn't even sell cut paper any longer. I know that it's not profitable or there would be product. I'm lucky to have a friend that's still in the processing business, I can get less than case quantities.
I'm sure Tetenal will want to correct this if they find fault. Tetenal supplies most of the products that Kodak sells in black and white, very good company!
Mike

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2018

You do not need starter with the replenisher. That is only needed if you are using a seasoned process!

PE

mnemosyne · Feb 19, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
You do not need starter with the replenisher. That is only needed if you are using a seasoned process!

PE

Correct, but you still have to dilute the replenisher with water to make your working solution and this is kind of pitfall with the highly concentrated "super low rate" replenishers as the ratio of replenisher and water is fundamentally different from that of preparing a working solution from a standard replenisher. Not saying this happened here or is the reason behind the OPs problems, just saying you have to know what you're doing when working with the commercial kits. The Tetenal amateur kits ("Colortec") come with detailed instructions, the commercial kits come with only rudimentary mixing instructions in the form of a couple of symbols (similar to the instructions on the current Kodak RT/LU kits I have seen) as they are aimed at people who are familiar with the concept of replenisher/working solution/starter.

mnemosyne · Feb 19, 2018

BMbikerider said:
To save asking, the processor was at the correct temperature which was confirmed by two different thermometers and was at exactly 35c

This is interesting, I just had a second look at the instructions you posted and noticed that it says the process should be run at 38C/45 s. I know this is not standard RA4, but I think Fuji has some RA4 process clones for minilabs that are run at this temperature.

Martin Rickards · Feb 19, 2018

What I am missing from a thread such as this, where we have disagreements on the meaning and translation of a manufacturer's instructions, is some input from the manufacturer himself. For the amateur it's a nuisance, an extra and unwanted cost and frustration and it makes it seem that the company has little interest in servicing amateurs' needs. For such a small niche product, I would have imagined that a manufacturer would have wished to be present on its major public forum.
For someone using their products commercially, I would hope that the service is somewhat better or we may have one less supplier in the future.

BMbikerider · Feb 19, 2018

This morning, following a talk with AG the supplier of the chemicals, my saga is at an end. They are taking back what remains of the Tetenal kit and refunding me the cost. In return I have ordered more of the Kodak Ektacolor RA4 plus the starter and the RA4 Ektacolor bleach to go with it. The relationship between them and myself remains intact and they still have my business.

BMbikerider · Feb 19, 2018

mnemosyne said:
This is interesting, I just had a second look at the instructions you posted and noticed that it says the process should be run at 38C/45 s. I know this is not standard RA4, but I think Fuji has some RA4 process clones for minilabs that are run at this temperature.

I had missed this but now it is purely academic. What I did see was the wide variations of temperature that it was usable at 35degrees +/- 3 degrees. I have always tried to maintain 35c, any variation could bring colour balance problems. (but not the sort I have had)

mnemosyne · Feb 19, 2018

Err, it's actually 38 C +/- 0.3 degrees according to the instructions but I agree this is most likely not related to the problems you experienced. Glad you found a way to sort this out with AG, I had good experience with them in the past, always responsive and helpful people.

BMbikerider · Feb 19, 2018

I must wear my reading glasses a bit more.

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

Photo Engineer said:
You do not need starter with the replenisher. That is only needed if you are using a seasoned process!

PE

You don't need starter if you are replenishing a seasoned working tank. But if you are starting a fresh working tank you need starter. After that replenish as usual.

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

You take your fresh prepared replenisher ,add starter and dilute further if necessary to make a fresh tank. Many people skip the starter, no big deal with RA4 but C41 can be a bigger problem.

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

This is all in the Z 10 manual which is still on line .

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

mshchem said:
This is all in the Z 10 manual which is still on line .

Z-130

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2018

The RA-RT developer replenisher for RA4 is used as mixed. I use it without starter.

The starter makes fresh developer replenisher look like a seasoned developer. I do not season my process.

PE

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2018

mshchem said:
no big deal with RA4 but C41 can be a bigger problem.

So for home C41 developing you need a starter? None of my kits ever came with a starter. Which C41 kits require a starter?Thanks

pentxuser.

BMbikerider · Feb 19, 2018

I have never ever used a starter with any C41 and I have used a few different brands. The original Agfa before they went out of business, Rollie, Fuji Hunt, to name names and have never had a problem and will continue to do as I have always done. In fact I cannot recall there being one on offer.

pentaxuser · Feb 19, 2018

BMbikerider said:
I have never ever used a starter with any C41 and I have used a few different brands. The original Agfa before they went out of business, Rollie, Fuji Hunt, to name names and have never had a problem and will continue to do as I have always done. In fact I cannot recall there being one on offer.

Yes, my immediate thought on a C41 starter was the fact that unless you are constantly developing C41 as in a mini-lab where once started it is possibly replenishment only, home processing classically involves one or several films at once then nothing for a period until the next one of a batch. Maybe the poster was referring to mini-lab processing where there is a starter requirement but I do not know. as I do not know enough about mini-lab processing.

Just as an aside but may be relevant in terms of past mini-lab methods v present mini-lab methods, a few years ago when someone asked how to keep C41/RA4 chemicals for occasional use he was told that if there was a mini-lab nearby he should go along to it with suitable containers and ask if they would fill him up so to speak to process a few films/prints. It sounded like a good idea

I asked my local lab how it got its chemicals and was shown a tailor made bottle that simply plugged in to the machine so no chance of them pouring me any from what I assumed must have been a large tank. Maybe the poster in question was speaking of a very old mini-lab system in his area but the lab owner in my area had had the lab for a number of years and had always had tailor-made containers.

pentaxuser

RPC · Feb 19, 2018

If you are using a regular developer kit for C-41, no starter is needed; the kit has all the necessary ingredients. But if you are making working solution developer out of replenisher, which is necessarily lacking in some ingredients, then you do need to add starter, which has those ingredients, for proper results. Again, this is for C-41.

For RA-4, I and others use Kodak RA-RT Develeper-Replenisher at room temperature and good results are achieved without dilution or starter. I have not used it at the normal temperatures and times, so can't say whether starter is needed or not for best results for those conditions.

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

BMbikerider said:
I have never ever used a starter with any C41 and I have used a few different brands. The original Agfa before they went out of business, Rollie, Fuji Hunt, to name names and have never had a problem and will continue to do as I have always done. In fact I cannot recall there being one on offer.

I have no doubt that you never used or have had provided in a kit a starter . For pro labs if they (very rarely ) dump everything and start fresh , if they're doing it by the book use starters. C41,E6, RA4, even Xtol has a starter . The cassette type replenishment bottles needs a starter . All God's Children needs a starter.

This is only necessary if you are interested in the activity of the solutions being the same from beginning to end , you are using huge tanks , like a dip and dunk etc. I use starters because it makes things more complicated ,,and it's the way to do it right . Ask PE I'm not making this up .For hobbyists you're not going to see much need . I won't use blix on film, there's a whole 'nother kettle of fish for discussion . It's all on Fuji Hunt website
Peace ,Mike

mshchem · Feb 19, 2018

Another thing if you are using one shot Jobo . You don't need starter because they don't recommend replenishment .

mnemosyne · Feb 20, 2018

@OP

JFYI, I found this older thread about yellow staining in a different forum. I am posting this in case the problems should persist even with the fresh Kodak developer. It is interesting in so far as PE describes a scenario where yellow staining is caused by exhausted blix but might not show when paper is run through blix only, whch coincides with your observations. IIRC we didn't discuss the state of your blix in this thread, so I am not sure if your blix is older or was mixed freshly.

RA-4 Printing Problem

RA4 processing

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