RA4 Printing - Paterson Orbital and Room Temperature Processing

LewisGoldstone · Mar 19, 2017

I have a colour enlarger and have been using it for B&W printing for a few months now and feel like now I'm getting perfectly acceptable results, but now really want some colour in my life. I've been put off solely due to temperature control and the sheer lack of information on the process. I've heard nuggets of info on room temperature processing, but nothing standardised, and most processing being done in a drum processor.

I don't have the money nor room for a drum but what I do have is a paterson orbital processor, which seem like a feasible and clean method of processing the paper in daylight, all the while maintaining temps of the chemicals in a water bath similar to that developing film.

Does anyone have any experience with this and/or printing at room temperature? Maintaining temperatures of 35c for hours at a time seems like an incredibly arduous process and drums are expensive, so this may seem like a good workaround.

RPC · Mar 19, 2017

I use Kodak RA/RT Developer/Replenisher and Kodak RA-4 Bleach-Fix at 68-75F for two minutes in trays. It gives excellent results. It is so much cheaper and easier to do it this way than any other way, so I see no need to do it any other way. I have no experience with your processor so you will just have to try it at room temp if you want, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

mshchem · Mar 20, 2017

You can process at room temperature no trouble with your nice processor. If you want to go faster just warm the chemistry up to 100F, do a nice prewash with 95 to 105 F water. . Develop, and Blix for a minute each. Then wash the print in a tray for 90 seconds in warm 75-85 F water. No stabilizer just let the print dry.
I would use a stop bath if I was using the orbital unit, it's just a old habit.

RA4 is soon much easier than the old processes, GET THE KODAK RA CHEMISTRY JUST LIKE RPC SUGGESTS. If you want to use exact temps and times you can, but the print develops completely in 45 seconds at 95 F,
You can develop 3 or 4 sheets at a time in a tray at room temperature, easy to replenish the solutions. Way faster than tubes.
Best Mike

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

RPC said:
I use Kodak RA/RT Developer/Replenisher and Kodak RA-4 Bleach-Fix at 68-75F for two minutes in trays. It gives excellent results. It is so much cheaper and easier to do it this way than any other way, so I see no need to do it any other way.

I second this. The only somewhat difficult part, initially, is having to work in total darkness. Once you've had some practice and established a method that works for you, processing RA-4 in trays is really no more difficult than processing black and white prints. There is no need for temperature control as long as your room temperature doesn't drop below 68F.

Having said that, there are many darkroom users who prefer drums - have a look at the recent thread where the respective advantages of drums and trays were discussed extensively. As with trays, a water bath is not necessary. When you say that you have neither the space nor the money for a drum, I suspect you are referring to something like a Jobo processor. A drum on its own, standing upright, will take up much less space - in fact, an 8x10 Cibachrome drum will basically take up the same storage space as a film developing tank. They can often be found quite cheap on the used marked. They can be hand-rolled, but you will probably want a motor-base. These can also be found for very little money. When I started out, I made my own with a motor from an old record player. Today, if I were using a drum, I would look for something like a Uniroller or Beseler motor base.

If you insist on processing at higher temperatures, you can just heat the chemicals beforehand without a water bath for the drum. If your chemicals are at 38C when you pour them in, your processing temperature will be close enough to 35C to allow you to use those times.

And even if you decide to use your orbital processor you still won't need a water bath.

Wayne · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
The only somewhat difficult part, initially, is having to work in total darkness.

Remember you don't have to work in total darkness either. There are color safelights and while not exactly bright at least it isn't totally dark either.

LewisGoldstone · Mar 20, 2017

Thank you for responses.

RPC said:
I use Kodak RA/RT Developer/Replenisher and Kodak RA-4 Bleach-Fix at 68-75F for two minutes in trays. It gives excellent results. It is so much cheaper and easier to do it this way than any other way, so I see no need to do it any other way. I have no experience with your processor so you will just have to try it at room temp if you want, but I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

I assume these are the chemicals you are talking about? http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-4x5l-295-p.asp and http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-bleach-fix-4x5l-296-p.asp

It says the shelf life is 6 weeks for a mixed solution but how long for the unmixed solutions? If long enough the upfront costs may be worth it.

By the sounds of it working at lower temps requires some experimentation, so how would I know if I'm under/over developing and the colour isn't just off as a result of the filtration values?

LewisGoldstone · Mar 20, 2017

Wayne said:
Remember you don't have to work in total darkness either. There are color safelights and while not exactly bright at least it isn't totally dark either.

This seems to be a contentious issue, many people say it doesn't work? On the subject, my time dial on my enlarger timer (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/evkAAOSw6n5XsLi4/$_1.JPG) glows green, would this cause any problems?

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

Wayne said:
Remember you don't have to work in total darkness either. There are color safelights and while not exactly bright at least it isn't totally dark either.

LewisGoldstone said:
This seems to be a contentious issue, many people say it doesn't work? On the subject, my time dial on my enlarger timer (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/evkAAOSw6n5XsLi4/$_1.JPG) glows green, would this cause any problems?

When I started colour printing, I was told that the safelights are so dim that they're not worth using, so I never bothered. Others on this forum say that you can have a quite useful amount of light provided you are careful with your choice of safelight, its placement and the length of time that the paper is exposed to the light. I can only recommend that you consider all the information you can can find here and elsewhere and decide for yourself. Working in the dark is not that difficult once you're used to it and have established an easily repeatable method, which includes placing everything where you can easily find it. I definitely would avoid using the timer, unless you can somehow shield off the glow.

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

LewisGoldstone said:
Thank you for responses.

I assume these are the chemicals you are talking about? http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-4x5l-295-p.asp and http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-bleach-fix-4x5l-296-p.asp

That's right. always choose RT chemicals if you intend to work at room temperature.

LewisGoldstone said:
It says the shelf life is 6 weeks for a mixed solution but how long for the unmixed solutions? If long enough the upfront costs may be worth it.

Impossible to give an exact time, but unopened concentrates should last a very long time - at least a year or two. The particular chemicals you linked to, are conveniently divided to allow you to mix 5 litres at a time, while leaving the rest of the concentrates untouched. 6 weeks for the mixed solution is also very conservative if you store it properly, excluding all air from the bottle.

LewisGoldstone said:
By the sounds of it working at lower temps requires some experimentation, so how would I know if I'm under/over developing and the colour isn't just off as a result of the filtration values?

It's almost impossible to overdevelop with RA-4. As long as you give two minutes at room temperature, you'll be fine.

LewisGoldstone · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
I definitely would avoid using the timer, unless you can somehow shield off the glow.

It's very faint glow so I'll probably just place it on the shelf below the enlarger, hope that'll be catious enough

Redfox61 said:
It's almost impossible to overdevelop with RA-4. As long as you give two minutes at room temperature, you'll be fine.

That's good to hear.

Being able to work at room temperature makes a huge difference and maybe makes the printing process even easier than b&w. It appears to be a similar issue with c41 where people feed this monster that working with colour is difficult and unattainable at home, whereas in many cases the standardised process makes it more straight forward. Hopefully not too many people my age are deterred so we support and keep these chemicals in production.

Many thanks everyone

rpavich · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
That's right. always choose RT chemicals if you intend to work at room temperature.

Impossible to give an exact time, but unopened concentrates should last a very long time - at least a year or two. The particular chemicals you linked to, are conveniently divided to allow you to mix 5 litres at a time, while leaving the rest of the concentrates untouched. 6 weeks for the mixed solution is also very conservative if you store it properly, excluding all air from the bottle.

It's almost impossible to overdevelop with RA-4. As long as you give two minutes at room temperature, you'll be fine.

One question that pops to mind; is there a significant quality difference between RT and 103 deg f developing RA-4?

I ask because my Jobo had a problem over the weekend and I ended up developing in tubes on a unicolor roller at room temp and I started wondering if I'd get any difference at temp other than saving time.

rpavich · Mar 20, 2017

LewisGoldstone said:
This seems to be a contentious issue, many people say it doesn't work? On the subject, my time dial on my enlarger timer (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/evkAAOSw6n5XsLi4/$_1.JPG) glows green, would this cause any problems?

I bought a cheap audible metronome for the tray portion of developing. I just set it to 60 and count out loud. It works amazingly well. One of the few things I've done right

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

rpavich said:
One question that pops to mind; is there a significant quality difference between RT and 103 deg f developing RA-4?

I ask because my Jobo had a problem over the weekend and I ended up developing in tubes on a unicolor roller at room temp and I started wondering if I'd get any difference at temp other than saving time.

I don't think there is any quality difference. You may just have to adjust the enlarger filtration slightly to get the same colour balance. "RT" on the Kodak packaging stands for "roller transport", not "room temperature". For Kodak, that is - for me it's "room temperature"!

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

LewisGoldstone said:
Being able to work at room temperature makes a huge difference and maybe makes the printing process even easier than b&w. It appears to be a similar issue with c41 where people feed this monster that working with colour is difficult and unattainable at home, whereas in many cases the standardised process makes it more straight forward.

You have to be much more careful with film, but it's certainly not "difficult and unattainable at home". Use a water bath, a pre-soak and try to maintain the temperature as closely as you can to 38C/100F. Don't give in to the temptation to do this at room temperature - even if some people claim excellent results. And time the development carefully.

LewisGoldstone · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
You have to be much more careful with film, but it's certainly not "difficult and unattainable at home". Use a water bath, a pre-soak and try to maintain the temperature as closely as you can to 38C/100F. Don't give in to the temptation to do this at room temperature - even if some people claim excellent results. And time the development carefully.

I develop my film at home using the 30c method, that's my point it's not hard but everyone makes it out to be. Hopefully it doesn't deter too many people that c41 and ra4 become too hard to buy

rpavich · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
I don't think there is any quality difference. You may just have to adjust the enlarger filtration slightly to get the same colour balance. "RT" on the Kodak packaging stands for "roller transport", not "room temperature". For Kodak, that is - for me it's "room temperature"!

Thanks very much!
I found it much easier to develop prints on a uicolor roller at room temperature than standing at a jobo even if the process takes a few more minutes than the jobo does

RPC · Mar 20, 2017

LewisGoldstone said:
Thank you for responses.

I assume these are the chemicals you are talking about? http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-4x5l-295-p.asp and http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-bleach-fix-4x5l-296-p.asp

It says the shelf life is 6 weeks for a mixed solution but how long for the unmixed solutions? If long enough the upfront costs may be worth it.

By the sounds of it working at lower temps requires some experimentation, so how would I know if I'm under/over developing and the colour isn't just off as a result of the filtration values?

The bleach-fix may work but I am unfamiliar with the developer. What is known to work, and what I use is labeled "Kodak Ektacolor RA Developer/Replenisher RT". The link's is labeled RT/LU. I would look for the RA and RT. Mix for use as the directions say for replenisher, but use as developer, at room temperature. Do not dilute or add any "starter".

The shelf life of the mixed developer/replenisher is MUCH longer than Kodak says if you store it in glass bottles, filled and tightly sealed it will last many months, if not years, as I and others know. The bleach-fix may not last as long but will likely last several months.

Use the developer as I said earlier at typical room temperatures and develop for two minutes. Just adjust the filtration as needed.

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

RPC said:
The bleach-fix may work but I am unfamiliar with the developer. What is known to work, and what I use is labeled "Kodak Ektacolor RA Developer/Replenisher RT". The link's is labeled RT/LU. I would look for the RA and RT.

According to a posting in this thread on flickr, the low-utilization (LU) replenisher works fine at room temperature:

"I use the RT/LU replenisher to do RA4 paper negatives. Works with supra endura at room temperature as well."

RPC · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox61 said:
According to a posting in this thread on flickr, the low-utilization (LU) replenisher works fine at room temperature:

"I use the RT/LU replenisher to do RA4 paper negatives. Works with supra endura at room temperature as well."

Oh, I don't doubt it develops, but whether it gives results as accurate as the RA/RT developer at room temperature is something I would have to test it for myself, or hear from someone I trust such as PE before I would recommend it.

Wayne · Mar 20, 2017

LewisGoldstone said:
This seems to be a contentious issue, many people say it doesn't work? On the subject, my time dial on my enlarger timer (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/evkAAOSw6n5XsLi4/$_1.JPG) glows green, would this cause any problems?

I haven't seen any contentiousness on the topic of color safelight safety in the several years I've been doing RA-4. PE does it safely, and I believe he leaves his on all the time. I do it safely, although I usually turn the light off once I've found my way from enlarger to trays without tripping and killing myself (its about 35 feet), just because I'm a worryer. Many others do it safely.

@Redfox,

I have also used Arista RA-4 chemicals at room temperature and they seemed to work fine. I only did it once or twice to test out using trays; once I switched to trays I started using Kodak RA/RT.

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

Wayne said:
I haven't seen any contentiousness on the topic of color safelight safety in the several years I've been doing RA-4. PE does it safely, and I believe he leaves his on all the time. I do it safely, although I usually turn the light off once I've found my way from enlarger to trays without tripping and killing myself (its about 35 feet), just because I'm a worryer. Many others do it safely.

There is no doubt that many do it safely. But people have varied opinions and experiences, with many having decided that it's too risky or not worth the trouble. In that sense it's contentious. Kodak themselves are very cautious in their recommendations. This is from their publication J39:

Handle unprocessed papers and materials in total darkness. Be sure that your darkroom is lighttight. Eliminate stray light from enlarger heads, timers, LEDs, etc.
Note: Using a safelight will affect your results. If absolutely necessary, you can use a safelight equipped with a KODAK 13 Safelight Filter (amber) and a 7½-watt bulb. Keep the safelight at least 1.2 metres (4 feet) from the paper or material. Run tests to determine that safelight use gives acceptable results for your application.

I think this is unnecessarily alarmist, but it does underscore the fact that using a safelight for colour requires a lot more caution than with b/w.

Wayne said:
I have also used Arista RA-4 chemicals at room temperature and they seemed to work fine. I only did it once or twice to test out using trays; once I switched to trays I started using Kodak RA/RT.

I have often wondered whether this holds true for other RA-4 chemicals. Who knows, perhaps most can be used successfully at room temperature.

RPC · Mar 20, 2017

I don't believe any of the RA-4 chemicals, especially developers or replenishers, are actually designed and sold to be used at room temperature (68-75F). Some, luckily, can be, but each one should be well-tested before using.

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

RPC said:
I don't believe any of the RA-4 chemicals, especially developers or replenishers, are actually designed and sold to be used at room temperature (68-75F). Some, luckily, can be, but each one should be well-tested before using.

Sure, it's not what they're designed for. But if a couple of them happen to work well that way, I think it's reasonable to expect the same to hold true for at least some others as well. It is, after all, the same process, despite differences in formulation.

I have also wondered whether using the replenisher as a working developer, without adding starter, is an important factor here. If I understand correctly, replenisher is more active without starter. Which led me to suspect that developers supplied with kits designed for home use (which can be compared with ready-mixed starter and replenisher) would be less successful at room temperature. However, Wayne's experience with Arista chemicals seems to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps we should encourage forum members to experiment with whatever RA-4 chemicals they may have, so that one can start compiling a list of room-temperature-friendly chemistry. I just bought some Cpac RA4 Pro RT chemicals myself, and I'll be trying it at room temp soon.

RPC · Mar 20, 2017

Redfox, all of what you say makes sense, but the problem is when people say they tried something and it worked. For that to be valid, they really need to have run valid tests such as sensitometry or printing gray scales or comparing prints side-by-side with known good stuff, or other reasonable tests. Most of them never say they have done that, so we need to use caution or our results may be disappointing! We have seen this before with alternative RA-4 and C-41 processes.

afriman · Mar 20, 2017

RPC said:
Redfox, all of what you say makes sense, but the problem is when people say they tried something and it worked. For that to be valid, they really need to have run valid tests such as sensitometry or printing gray scales or comparing prints side-by-side with known good stuff, or other reasonable tests. Most of them never say they have done, that so we need to use caution as our results may be disappointing! We have seen this before with alternative RA-4 and C-41 processes.

Agreed. Any such feedback would have to be verified.

RA4 Printing - Paterson Orbital and Room Temperature Processing

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