Ra4 Printing: my experience and some question!

Hello, I'm a new APUG user, this is my first post. I live in Italy (Rome) and I just started to print ra4 in my darkroom.
This is my process: I use Fuji CA paper (sheets cutted), Durst Laborator 1200 with colour head (YMC filters) and Density filter ( I use 50 density for longer exposure), Jobo drum with motorized roller base and for now Tetenal chemicals: Colortec ra4 room temperatur kit, with dev + blix (not separated).
I'm getting very good results, but I have some question:

1: I used Tetenal room temperature kit (16-25°) but now I bought Tetenal pro kit 5l with blix separated and process 35°. First question: with drum at room temperature I smell sometimes a bad and toxic odor... I fear that with 35° process, I breath very toxic air, expecially when I open the drum... I have to use a cover? Is really toxic to work with drum?

2: Sombody told me that Tetenal Pro ra4 kit 35° can be used also at "room temperature" like 25° with an increment of time process. This is true? Change the color balance if I process at 25° or at 35° with different times? I have no problem to work at 35°, but if the results are the same i prefer to work at 25°... (because some people says that Fuji CA doesn't work well at low temperature, some people says that it works fine...)

3: I work with a strange color filtration... for some fuji negatives I had to use 5-10 cyan filter, 0Y and very little of M (5-10-15 max), with Kodak negatives I used however low filtration with 20-30 max of Y or M. I know that the typical filtration is 40-70 M and Y with no Cyan. For now prints are good, but I don't know if this process is correct or there is some problem... maybe it is for Fuji CA with room temperature process? The blix is surely fresh, chemicals not contaminted and with or without stop bath is the same.

4: I lose a lot of time to finding correct filtration for each negative: if negatives are shooted in the same light condition I can print them with the same filtration, but if I have different conditions and different locations i have to find different filtrations for each frame, though the film is the same. Is this normal? What is best tool to easily finding correct color balance? For now I not used color anaylizer.

I'm sorry for my inaccurated english. I searched some answer in other topics, but I prefer write here my experience. Please link me some topic if they have some answer for me. I'm sorry if these questions are a repetition for this forum.

Thank you very much

Giorgio

Giorgio,

When I print with a new paper / film combination I tend to start with magenta and yellow filtration halfway up the dials, but with no cyan. i.e. 100 magenta, 100 yellow in my case with a DeVere head.

Tom

Yes, me too. But i had to "decrease" till 0Y, 10-20M and with fuji negatives 5-10 Cyan, for a balanced print...

New Fuji paper with the "old" RA process often requires an odd filtration. Normal filtration is about 50M 50Y but varies from there with different light sources. The Tetenal Room Temp kit is vastly overpriced. The 38 deg process kits are more reasonable. It is possible to use the Kodak kits at room temp as is if you use the replenisher straight. IDK about any other kits or papers.

PE

PE,

The Kodak kits are almost 1/4 the price of the Tetenal 38ºC kits over here. Perhaps Tetenal have better distribution, they certainly get a significant number of mentions on APUG for their colour kits. - I should point out that I use several Tetenal products in black & white photography.

Tom

If the Kodak kits are so much less expensive, then why are they not selling?

PE

Photo Engineer said:

If the Kodak kits are so much less expensive, then why are they not selling?

PE

Click to expand...

A good question, perhaps analogue colour photography isn't considered a major sector by some UK retailers; however Ag Photographic established about this time last year have been doing a very good job dealing in colour materials. I don't have comparative sales figures to hand but this link should give some idea of pricing:

http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/process-ra4-117-c.asp

Tom

Your Density filter could have a color bias.

Your time and temperature may need adjusting.

There is the possibility that your C-41 developing process for the negatives isn't standard and may be adding an abnormal cast to your film.

Giorgio I had exactly the same experience of some prints needing C with the Tetenal 35C kit and Fuji paper. I intend using the Kodak kit in future. I'd prefer Kodak paper as well and never had that problem with Kodak paper but sadly the Supra Endura paper is no more. Fuji paper now has the monopoly.

A company called AGphotographic in the UK sells the Kodak kit at very good prices and I think will send to Europe. You might want to have a look at the site. The euro to pound sterling exchange rate is quite good for the euro-zone residents so the kits might be quite cheap for you.

On the issue of smells I never had any problem with the Tetenal kit but only used the 35C kit.

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer said:

If the Kodak kits are so much less expensive, then why are they not selling?

PE

Click to expand...

Ron I think that until Agphotographic started in business very few site in the U.K. sold the Kodak stuff and those that did wanted the customer to buy large quantities. Not a problem in itself as the one site I have in mind had reasonable charges but most of us assumed that we'd waste most of the stuff as we wouldn't use the quantities fast enough unless we were printing large quantities. I think you and others in various threads have helped to kill the assumption that RA4 chemicals have very short lives and have helped establish that the Kodak kits can be used at room temp.

However some beliefs are hard to remove even if they have no basis in fact. I confess to still feeling more nervous about processing and printing colour than B&W. Maybe like Giorgio I found myself "ambushed" by some negs which is disconcerting and also a wrong colour print is obviously wrong and not always easy to correct whereas a B&W print has a much larger margin for error and can still look reasonably OK even if the printer knows that it is not the very best that can be achieved.

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Ron I think that until Agphotographic started in business very few site in the U.K. sold the Kodak stuff and those that did wanted the customer to buy large quantities. Not a problem in itself as the one site I have in mind had reasonable charges but most of us assumed that we'd waste most of the stuff as we wouldn't use the quantities fast enough unless we were printing large quantities. I think you and others in various threads have helped to kill the assumption that RA4 chemicals have very short lives and have helped establish that the Kodak kits can be used at room temp.

However some beliefs are hard to remove even if they have no basis in fact. I confess to still feeling more nervous about processing and printing colour than B&W. Maybe like Giorgio I found myself "ambushed" by some negs which is disconcerting and also a wrong colour print is obviously wrong and not always easy to correct whereas a B&W print has a much larger margin for error and can still look reasonably OK even if the printer knows that it is not the very best that can be achieved.

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

On the other hand a colour print can look "just right" whereas one can often interpret a black & white print in several different ways depending on your intention.

Tom

Giorgio_23 said:

First question: with drum at room temperature I smell sometimes a bad and toxic odor... I fear that with 35° process, I breath very toxic air, expecially when I open the drum... I have to use a cover? Is really toxic to work with drum?

Click to expand...

RA-4 chemicals do tend to smell, but AFAIK the fumes aren't toxic in the literal sense, at least not if the darkroom is even somewhat ventilated. If you're reacting negatively to the odor, perhaps you're allergic to something. It's conceivable that changing brands will improve matters, or you may want to look into the ventilation issue. If you just find the odor unpleasant, then the same advice applies, although it's less critical in this case.

2: Sombody told me that Tetenal Pro ra4 kit 35° can be used also at "room temperature" like 25° with an increment of time process. This is true? Change the color balance if I process at 25° or at 35° with different times?

Click to expand...

Photo Engineer (often abbreviated "PE") is APUG's leading expert on many topics, including color photochemistry. Extrapolating from his advice about Kodak's RA-4, I've done RA-4 processing at room temperature with a couple other brands, with good results. IIRC, I do generally need to adjust the filtration values, but I've never done a side-by-side comparison to be sure. I've also used Fuji CA at room temperature, albeit with a mix-it-yourself room-temperature developer, with good results. FWIW, this developer creates a room-temperature variant just by adding 5g of potassium hydroxide to a liter of the developer's working. I don't know if the same approach would work with commercial RA-4 developers, or if the time savings of making this change would be important to you if it would work.

3: I work with a strange color filtration... for some fuji negatives I had to use 5-10 cyan filter, 0Y and very little of M (5-10-15 max), with Kodak negatives I used however low filtration with 20-30 max of Y or M. I know that the typical filtration is 40-70 M and Y with no Cyan. For now prints are good, but I don't know if this process is correct or there is some problem...

Click to expand...

Others have posted some ideas of things that might cause this. Some are process problems but others aren't. IMHO, the bottom line is this: If the prints look good, don't worry about it; just use whatever it takes to get good prints. The caveat is that if the odd filtration is a symptom of a chemistry or processing problem, there could be a secondary effect down the line in the form of faded or discolored prints in a few months or years. My suspicion, though, is that this is a matter of Fuji CA weirdness, possibly in conjunction with faded filters or some peculiarity in the color of your light source. These issues shouldn't cause image stability problems, so if you're happy with the prints, just go with it.

4: I lose a lot of time to finding correct filtration for each negative: if negatives are shooted in the same light condition I can print them with the same filtration, but if I have different conditions and different locations i have to find different filtrations for each frame, though the film is the same. Is this normal? What is best tool to easily finding correct color balance? For now I not used color anaylizer.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, this is normal. Our brains automatically adjust to different light sources, but film doesn't do that, so changing light sources create such problems. A color analyzer can help if this is causing real problems. Alternatively, you could take notes on typical adjustments -- for instance, find a good color balance for a daylight shot and then if the same roll has a tungsten exposure, find the correct balance for that. You can then write down the difference and, if you run into a similar light source shift on another roll, use it. It might not be exactly right, but it should be close enough to save a lot of time.

Another approach is to use color correcting filters. For instance, an 80A filter enables daylight film to be shot in tungsten light without color corrections. (In practice, you might want to make a tiny tweak to the filtration even when using such filters, but the change should be pretty small if you use the right filter.) Using a filter will theoretically produce a superior result, since when you shoot in the "wrong" type of light, you end up over- and/or under-exposing one or more of the film's layers. OTOH, filters rob you of some light, so you'll need to use a wider aperture and/or slower shutter speed when you use a filter.

I would like to add that color negative films from Fuji and Kodak are made just like reversal films, in the sense that they give the same (but negative) color balance in every roll. Therefore, they should print with the same filter pack if processed properly (within about a 10R just like E6 films actually). In my own experience, I can use about the same color balance over 50 years span with negatives (+/- 10R). I make my contact sheets at a constant pack and exposure and get the same results over and over with that slight filter pack change.

Going to 20 deg C from 38 deg C, I find an additional 10R (approximate) change. That was using the RA/RT developer replenisher. I used the 10 L kit divided up into several smaller portions. The concentrate lasted me nearly a year as did the dilute working solution in one case.

The odor in most RA paper kits is due to Diethyl Hydroxyl Amine Oxalate, the antioxidant in that color developer. It is added to by some additional organic chemicals that I forget offhand.

The Tetenal room temperature kit is, IMHO, overpriced when a normal kit can do the same job.

PE

A good business idea would be to split the Kodak 4x5 l (20 liter) kits to four separate kits. 20 liters is already split in separate "to make 5 litres" bottles, only the carton boxes should be opened to do this! I mean these: http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-kit-4x5l-295-p.asp and http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-blix-kit-4x5l-296-p.asp

At the same time, a simple sheet of instructions could be added, as these boxes do not include any.

Price would be £11.98 / 5 liters of dev&blix + some additional overhead from splitting the kits.

And, I want to mention again my severe problems with Tetenal 2.5 liter room temp blix. Use a search function to find more about the problems.

hrst,

Although the total price of the Kodak developer and blix kits is reasonable compared to one Tetenal kit.

Tom

The Photographers Formulary sells 1 L kit of C41. They are just fine.

PE

hrst said:

A good business idea would be to split the Kodak 4x5 l (20 liter) kits to four separate kits.

Click to expand...

I also had been thinking about this. I suspect that Kodak distribution would forbid such a move and it would need to be done by the individual buyer, selling the kits back on.

Giorgio_23 said:

What is best tool to easily finding correct color balance?

Click to expand...

With time, I think that your brain and your experience will be the best tools. My tip is to make loads of notes, keep every print (even the bad ones), write the filtration values of the back and you'll find that over time you'll encounter the same sorts of issues and you can go back to your notes. To make life easier, standardise and only shoot one type of film. I have one of these and it helps a lot:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kodak-Color-P...oom-Print-/230510988284?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

Thank you all. So, for bad smell no problem, thisi is a good news for me. With regard to odd filtration, for now I continue to use this "strange" balance because i'm getting very good results, next week i'll try tetenal 5l kit at 35° (also at 25°).
The paper: In italy is sold only roll paper, i need cutted sheets because I don't know how to cut a roll... And in Europe (England) I found only Fuji CA, Kodak paper is discontinued. For now Fuji paper seems to be a good product...
Chemicals: I have Tetenal distribuition in Rome and for me is very easy to buy Tetenal products... However i will try with Kodak chemicals.. But the key question is: If I get very good results with odd filtration and then I get the same results with "conventional" filtration (maybe with kodak paper or chemicals), I can use both processes or there is only one correct process? Srs5694 has already answer me but I would like to have your confirm ("If the prints look good, don't worry about it; just use whatever it takes to get good prints")
However thank you all for your help and for you experience

Photo Engineer said:

The Photographers Formulary sells 1 L kit of C41. They are just fine.

Click to expand...

I can't find this on their Web site. (IMHO, their new Web site is worse than their old one, which in turn was only so-so.) Is it listed on their Web site, or do you have to call or e-mail them about it?

Kodak would not complain if someone were to buy large kits and repack them in smaller kits, as long as it was done properly. As for the Formulary, these kits were not yet on the web site, but could be ordered by phone. Sherry is still migrating and arranging their web site store. She tells me that they were caught with no warning by the ISP that the change in software was to take place, so they are working overtime to fix problems and add products.

PE

Giorgio_23 said:

The paper: In italy is sold only roll paper, i need cutted sheets because I don't know how to cut a roll...

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It's fairly easy, actually. Get a paper cutter, preferably a rotary model. I've got this one, just as a point of reference. Try an office supply store if you don't know where to look. You can then mark out the point where a sheet should be cut using masking tape, so you can feel it in total darkness. If you need to cut something wider than the paper cutter, just put a block of wood or something to its side and mark the point on that. Then, in total darkness, open the roll of paper, feed it through the cutter, and start cutting. I recommend doing a few sheets, putting everything away, and then using them. That'll let you see how good a job you did. You may find your cuts aren't quite perfect until you've had some practice -- it's surprisingly easy to accidentally introduce some skew or to cut a bit too long or too short. (With mine, I need to cut a little short of the marks printed on the cutter at the factory; they aren't all that accurate.) With a little practice, you can get reasonably consistent sheets this way. It also helps if you can rig a holder for the paper so it's not resting directly on the table, but rolls freely when you pull the paper through.

If I get very good results with odd filtration and then I get the same results with "conventional" filtration (maybe with kodak paper or chemicals), I can use both processes or there is only one correct process?

Click to expand...

Different papers require different filtrations. If you've got three boxes of paper from three different manufacturers (or sometimes even different types of paper from a single manufacturer), and if you adjust the filtration for a perfect print from Box A, chances are you'll get terrible results if you use the same filtration on Box B and Box C. They're usually vaguely similar, in the sense that cyan filtration is unusual, but the differences can be surprisingly dramatic.

I can say though that in one given paper line such as Endura, they do everything possible to keep the color balance and therefore the color filter pack constant! It is different than Fuji paper, but internally consistent and as close to identical from batch to batch as humanly possible.

PE

ok thanks. For now i use a Fuji CA paper for my first experiments, then i'll try kodak endura. If using this odd filtration with fuji CA and tetenal chamicals I get good results, the important is that it is a correct process and for now I can continue in this way. Thank you all for your help. If someone has advices for color printig or useful links, please write here!