RA-4 process: developer "consumed" or "drank up" by Fujifilm paper

[Paul Mrn]

Hello all,
Before I start, I apologize in advance if some of the words I used lack accuracy, English is not my native language.

I've started processing RA-4 color prints and have not run into major problems so far. I'm processing on a Jobo CPE2, with a Tetenal RA-4 kit.

I've noticed, however, that out of my original 120mL that I'm supposed to pour in the drum, I get back around 115/110mL once the developer time is up (depending on the size of the paper, so far I have never processed anything above 5x8 so nothing very large).

I've had a hard time finding content on that issue, if it is an issue at all. I understand it is "natural" that the paper drinks up a bit of chemical, but does it mean I have to refill every time I process to reach back the 120mL? I can do that obviously but I just felt that it was quite a lot of developer being consumed and so it was not great for the "productivity" of the kit (I mean that it would make me "run out" of developer faster than it is supposed to last.

I hope I have been clear enough, thanks in advance for the help!
Paul

 

[Paul Mrn]

Hi again,
I looked into it a bit more tonight and I tried to do a prewet before the developer. I did a 30'' prewet at 35°C, with clean water, and it seems to have solved my issue. Makes sense I guess, the paper absorbs the prewet water instead of the developer.
I'll keep doing that and see if it creates issues of another kind, but for the moment it seems to have solved it.

 

[gdavis]

No need to apologize, your English is excellent! Your post was clearer than many native English speakers.

The recommended volumes for drum processors are usually the minimum required to get even coverage, so yes, you should refill to maintain the volume or you may get uneven development.

However, it's commonly recommended to not reuse developer with drum processing as the drum action leads to rapid oxidation of the developer. The recommendation is to use it one-shot - use once and discard (some people may stretch it a little by using it twice).

Of course, 120 mL is quite a lot for a single 5x8.

I'm not familiar with the Jobo drums, but 120 mL sounds like a lot to me, do you have a reference for that recommendation? I have 3 sizes of non-jobo drums - 8x10, 11x14 and 16x20. The 8x10 drum only needs 30 mL, 120 mL for the 16x20 drum.

 

[Paul Mrn]

Thanks for your reply @gdavis.

The reference I use for the jobo drum is written on my jobo drum 2840 (see pic attached to the message). It's a pretty large drum since it can hold one 12x16'', hence I assume the 120mL requirement.


I was not aware of the recommendation to use the developer "one-shot". Quite the opposite actually: I discovered the CPE2 with this drum in the lab of a photo club last year, and they reused the 120mL of chemicals, and renewed it when they saw signs of "visible exhaustion".
I'm following the same process but trying to make it more regular: based on the tables of the RA4 manual, I "deduced" (a basic rule of three was my deduction) that 120mL could, on a drum process, develop around 16 5x7''. So far I've been below that treshold with no visible sign of chemical exhaustion.

I just ended a dev session where I tested out the "prewet" solution. So far it seems to work, I do not lose 5-10mL of dev every time I process a paper, and it also helped me with a streak issue I had frome time to time. Tonight, before I started prewetting, even a small test band of around 1''x7'' would drink up around 5mL of dev!

Fingers crossed, I might have found "my" workflow

Thanks again for your input.
Paul

 

[pentaxuser]

Paul, it has been a number of years since I last did RA4 prints using a Jobo processor but as I recall it the method was to empty the developer back into the containers that also sat in the water bath. The containers held much more developer than each print required so it was a form of a replenishment system. Once you had developed so many prints you had exhausted the developer in the big container so you either dumped the big container or dumped some of the developer in the big container and made fresh developer to replenish what you dump.

The Nova slot processor uses the same system. The developer slot holds 1L of developer and you keep a record of the number of prints you have done. At the end of the printing session you replenish the developer according to the maker's formula

So you are doing it correctly as long as you replenish at a rate that keeps your developer fresh.

Nothing wrong with a use once and dump except that if it takes say 100ml to developer one RA4 print and you dump that 100ml immediately afterwards then you waste a lot of developer that is capable of doing more than one RA4 print

pentaxuser

 

[brbo]

Fingers crossed, I might have found "my" workflow

If it works for you... But you are essentially just diluting your developer more and more with every run you do. The "missing" 5ml of developer that you noticed before is now mainly replaced by water. This is not a problem in itself if you're getting results that you expect*, but I can see that consistency might be a problem especially if you are not extending development times with each run.

* I also use a more economical RA-4 process in Jobo drum. I dilute developer 1:1 (with only 10-15s extended time @35ºC) but still use it one shot. I tested this side-by-side against standard RA-4 processing times for Ektacolor RA-4 RT/LU in Jobo and it gave identical print. And as it is one shot I didn't have to test the results through all the developer's life cycle which you will have to do with your alternative process. Higher than 1:1 dilutions needed more time that I wanted to spend. Drum processing is already slow and tedious as it is (when you include the time needed for washing the drum, etc.).

 

[Bikerider]

There is a similar 'problem' when using a Nova slot processor. When you take the developed print from the developing slot and transfer it into the stop bath then again transfer the print from the stop bath into the blix there is also an amount of 'carry over'. The net result is the developer slot reduces in quantity and and if I have a long session I may have to refill the developer slot with more developer replenisher twice during the time I am working.

This does ensure that I keep the replenishment up to scratch, although I still keep a careful check on the amount of paper I put through.

The transfer of stop and the wasted blix when I move the paper from those slots means, I also have to replenish them more than would be absolutely necessary.

 

[halfaman]

Paper soaking some developer is normal. With 8x10'' paper and a Jobo 2830 tank, I found it is around 10 ml per print. You have to add around 5 ml that will remain always inside the tank. Presoaking with water is the typical workaround. I do it although I use one-shot chemistry to ensure an even development, I got occasionaly some strange streaks on top of the paper that dissapeared completely with presoaking.

 

[Chan Tran]

If the drum requires a certain amount of chemical you have to fill it up that much. For me I would throw away the chemical after one use. It costs a lot of money but it's more consistent. For drum processing replenishment isn't really possible.

 

[Paul Mrn]

HI everybody,
Thanks for all the answers.
Since deciding to add a prewet/presoak step to my process, I went through two sessions and did not see any default, or strange behavior, that would make me question that choice. Of course, as several people stated, that is deeply correlated to my level of requirement and to the accuracy of my eyes, so maybe what is suiting me now would not be consistent enough for someone else.

Out of curiosity, I tried to use one batch of 120mL dev for more prints than recommended by the Tetenal tech spec. I got 3-4 more good prints (10x15) than the 16-treshold you can deduce from the tech spec, then I saw a visible degradation of quality. I'm not saying I'll keep using my dev batches over the 16-print limit, just that there is a point where the quality does visibly degrade, and it is coherent with the tech specs.

Finally, just for the sake of conversation, @brbo : my read on this was different than yours. The way I see it, I'm not diluting the dev more and more each time, I'm simply soaking the depth of the paper with water from the prewet instead of with dev. Said water stays in the depths of the paper till I put it out to dry.
Of course since a little bit of water will stay in the drum when I empty the prewet, I do dilute the dev a bit, but it's definitely way less than the 5mL (or more with bigger papers) that I used to lose from soaking when not prewetting.
That was my understanding of the problem, and two things backed me up and made me more confident in this. First, the Kodak RA-4 manual advises for a prewet. Second, the owner of the photo store where I purchase all my chemicals and films, who worked for decades in a pro lab in Paris, gave me the same advice when I explained my issue to him.
Again, not putting that here to overtly win an argument, just thought I'd share to add my two cents to the mix.

If I ever have weird results or hear an opposite advice I'll let you know.

Thanks again everybody for helping out!
Paul

 

[Paul Mrn]

Sorry for the double post, I just noticed the other messages.

@halfaman : I had similar issues (streaks and/or spots) from time to time, and they disappeared with the presoaking as well! I read somewhere (I don't remember where) that the presoaking helps the dev to spread faster at the beginning of the developing step which reduces these issues.

@Chan Tran : I'd love to have the means to do that but my drum uses 120mL, so with one 5L kit I would be able to do a bit more than 40 runs... With a couple of test sheets per print, that's not even 20 prints per kit, it's too expensive for me (not to mention the ecological cost which hurts me a bit as well )
Since it's "just paper", and not film, I'm OK with taking the chance to mess up once in a while (due to lack of renewal) and print again with fresh chems, instead of going with one-shot.

 

[koraks]

I'm simply soaking the depth of the paper with water from the prewet instead of with dev. Said water stays in the depths of the paper till I put it out to dry.

No, it's replaced by developer during development as the developer diffuses into the emulsion, and hence, the presoak water from the emulsion dilutes the developer. It's just a little, but if you use a small volume of developer and reuse it multiple times, it does add up. This is on top of presoak water hanging on to the inside of the drum.

There is always developer attrition. A presoak simply compensates for the attrition by adding water. I.e., diluting.

 

[brbo]

Finally, just for the sake of conversation, @brbo : my read on this was different than yours. The way I see it, I'm not diluting the dev more and more each time, I'm simply soaking the depth of the paper with water from the prewet instead of with dev. Said water stays in the depths of the paper till I put it out to dry.

edit: didn't notice koraks' post before replying so I deleted my reply...

I will just add that RA-4 paper base doesn't absorb chemicals or water.

 

[Paul Mrn]

Ok, thanks for the extra info. I will keep an eye on all that, and see if I can live with the dilution.

Thanks!

 

[koraks]

Keep in mind that if you pre-rinse and use 120ml of developer, and there is 5ml absorbed in the emulsion and sticking to the tank, then each time you reuse the developer, it is diluted with 5ml of water. So after 12 rounds, this has already added up to 60ml, which half your 120ml volume. In other words, by this time, you're running your developer effectively at about 1+1 dilution.
Pre-rinse is not a big factor if you use the developer one shot or if you take a small amount put of a substantially larger stock that you keep reusing. But when reusing the same small volume, it becomes quite problematic quite fast.