RA-4 Problem

Young He · Sep 3, 2017

Hello all,

I have recently set up a darkroom to make colour prints, and I have been using Fuji CA for paper and Fuji C200 as my film. I am using Kodak chemistry at around 65 ish F, 3:30 developer and blix , and a hand rolled jobo drum. My initial prints came out fine with little problem, but on prints with large areas of sky, I noticed a brownish stain? that forms a line in the middle of the print. There are no other streaks or discolouration in any other part of the print, but the small stain persisted on several prints. I am unable to send pictures right now, but I want to know if its a problem with the chemicals or my processing method, or something else. Thanks.

BMbikerider · Sep 4, 2017

The first thing I noticed was in your information about developing the film. The standard temperature and time for all C41 films in any C41 developer is 38C or 100F and the developing time is 3 mins 15 seconds. The temperature has to be precise - using at any temp, is not a case of 100 degrees-ish, it has to as close to the manufacturers time as you can get. Any difference will show in the finished negatives.

If you do make variations to the recommended times/temps then you have to compensate one way or another.

Bleach time is 6 mins @ 35 to 38C and fix the same followed by 6 x 30 seconds of washing in water @ 35c to 38c. If you use a stabiliser bath that is 1 minute at 35 to 38C. Do not wash the film afterwards.

There is a little more lattitude at the printing stage with the temp as close to 35c as you can get with a processing time of 45 seconds but if it is a little bit under/over you will notice and can compensate with later prints.

As for the brownish stain I cannot explain. I would look at under bleaching or fixing or perhaps some sort of light leakage when you are exposing the paper. (That I do know can happen by personal experience.)

rpavich · Sep 4, 2017

Young He said:
Hello all,

I have recently set up a darkroom to make colour prints, and I have been using Fuji CA for paper and Fuji C200 as my film. I am using Kodak chemistry at around 65 ish F, 3:30 developer and blix , and a hand rolled jobo drum. My initial prints came out fine with little problem, but on prints with large areas of sky, I noticed a brownish stain? that forms a line in the middle of the print. There are no other streaks or discolouration in any other part of the print, but the small stain persisted on several prints. I am unable to send pictures right now, but I want to know if its a problem with the chemicals or my processing method, or something else. Thanks.

Well, the 3:30 for the developer duration is fine in my opinion, even slightly long. I use 2:45 but that won't hurt anything. Same for the blix. I also use a Jobo drum but I use a Unicolor roller. Are you saying you are rolling the drum around by hand?

Does this stain happen when the drums are bone dry or on subsequent prints after doing the first one. I ask because I can get staining when the drum isn't mostly dry and a water streak runs down the paper and I don't start the developing process right away.

Here is what my process for RA-4 looks like and as long as the chems are fresh, this works like a charm:

1:00 water rinse.
2:45 developer
30s stop bath
30s rinse
2:45 Blix
1:00 wash 3 times each.

All of the problems that I've had are from chems that went bad, the process works if the chems are working like they should.

BMbikerider · Sep 4, 2017

I cannot understand why people almost insist of deviating from the recommended times/temps. The times/temps will have been extensively tested by the manufacturers at great expense to get the optimum results, so why change this. I cannot for the life of me see what the benefit, if any, will be. I can see a great deal of dissapointment though

B&W is a totally different matter, you can play around with that almost ad infinitum. You are not dealing with colour dyes which will not behave in the conventional way if the initial development time is drastically changed. Developing a C41 film at 65 degrees F, even with a time of 3.5 mins will give you under developed negatives - End of.

I have only once developed colour negatives at a lower temp than that recommended and that was at 35 degreesC. Even with only 3 degrees difference the negatives were virtually unprintable to get a good colour and contrast.

RattyMouse · Sep 4, 2017

BMbikerider said:
I cannot understand why people almost insist of deviating from the recommended times/temps. The times/temps will have been extensively tested by the manufacturers at great expense to get the optimum results, so why change this. I cannot for the life of me see what the benefit, if any, will be. I can see a great deal of dissapointment though

B&W is a totally different matter, you can play around with that almost ad infinitum. You are not dealing with colour dyes which will not behave in the conventional way if the initial development time is drastically changed. Developing a C41 film at 65 degrees F, even with a time of 3.5 mins will give you under developed negatives - End of.

I have only once developed colour negatives at a lower temp than that recommended and that was at 35 degreesC. Even with only 3 degrees difference the negatives were virtually unprintable to get a good colour and contrast.

The OP is talking about RA41. Why are you talking about C41?

RattyMouse · Sep 4, 2017

Young He said:
Hello all,

I have recently set up a darkroom to make colour prints, and I have been using Fuji CA for paper and Fuji C200 as my film. I am using Kodak chemistry at around 65 ish F, 3:30 developer and blix , and a hand rolled jobo drum. My initial prints came out fine with little problem, but on prints with large areas of sky, I noticed a brownish stain? that forms a line in the middle of the print. There are no other streaks or discolouration in any other part of the print, but the small stain persisted on several prints. I am unable to send pictures right now, but I want to know if its a problem with the chemicals or my processing method, or something else. Thanks.

Welcome to APUG and I hope you are OK down in Houston!

sfaber · Sep 4, 2017

Young He said:
Hello all,
. My initial prints came out fine with little problem, but on prints with large areas of sky, I noticed a brownish stain? that forms a line in the middle of the print.

My guess is that since you are doing it by hand, that you may not be introducing the chemicals fast enough. You are using a pre-rinse, which is good. Maybe try a bit more developer and pour it in fast and roll fast right away. Is this a bigger print than the first ones?

Wayne · Sep 4, 2017

RattyMouse said:
Welcome to APUG and I hope you are OK down in Houston!

APUG was euthanized 3 weeks ago.

bvy · Sep 4, 2017

Try adding a stop bath and rinse between developer and blix. I get this too sometimes when I skip that step (usually on test prints).

BMbikerider · Sep 4, 2017

RattyMouse said:
The OP is talking about RA41. Why are you talking about C41?

If you read the post carefully you will note that he first talkes about C41 film, ie Fuji C200. Then the information wanders off course. The development temp for C41 is 38C/100f not 65F which is cooler than the developer most B&W films are processed in. If he/she was referring to RA4 print processing, then the temp is still far too cold that should be 35c (65F equals about 16.6C) and the development time is far too long. RA4 should be 45 seconds not 3.5 mins.

If in fact he /she is quoting the times and temps that are used, then I'm not surprised the results are 'dodgy'. There used to be some chemicals that could be used at room temp (whatever that is) but they are no longer advertised.

Wayne · Sep 4, 2017

RA-4 at room temp for 2 minutes in Kodak chems works fine.

Photo Engineer · Sep 4, 2017

The OP is unclear, so the answers seem to wander a bit.

C41 MUST be done at 100F. RA4 (not RA41) can be done from 68F to 100F with adjustment in time. Usually 2' at 68 and 1' at 100F. IDK about current Fuji paper though. It worked with the older papers.

A stop between the Developer and Blix with paper or film will help uniformity and prevention of stains.

PE

mshchem · Sep 4, 2017

Stop Bath, really helps. Especially with tube processor. Hint, I have a microwave in my darkroom. VERY short time i.e. 8 seconds will warm up chemicals. RA-4 is 45s at 95 F. I process everything at 100F, I make sure I get at least 45s, you can let it go a bit longer, the print is fully developed. I use the old Kodak Rapid Color Processors, Thomas safelights with color filter. (these processors require working in the dark)

At 100F
Pre-wet Paper 30 s
Develop 45s
Stop Bath 30s (You can use indicator stop)
Blix 45s
Wash 1:30 (with running 100 F water)
Dry 15s with Ilford Ilfospeed dryer

So easy, as long a you use the same film, once you get filter pack dialed in I don't mess with filters much. Fuji CA is all that is available in cut sheets. One of these days I'm going to buy a roll of Kodak professional paper, Much nicer paper in terms of the thickness of the paper stock. Having said that other than the thickness, Fuji CA is great (and inexpensive) paper.

I've given up on inkjet. Total pain in the butt. Especially if you start with film. I use my local shops for RA-4 from digital cameras.

Best Mike

Wayne · Sep 4, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
RA4 (not RA41) can be done from 68F to 100F with adjustment in time. Usually 2' at 68 and 1' at 100F. IDK about current Fuji paper though. It worked with the older papers.

PE

68 in trays for 2' works fine with Fuji CA and Arista, which is presumably Fuji too.

DREW WILEY · Sep 4, 2017

My hunch is that you are somehow getting a bit of contamination stain from something not entirely removed from the drum, probably developer. Due to that very risk, after the stop, I also give a brief rinse with a significant volume of plain water, prior to the BLIX step.

Young He · Sep 4, 2017

Thank you for all the help. I am sorry I did not make it clear, but I was talking about RA-4. I mentioned the film I was using (C200) in case the staining was a problem caused by the film. I am proccessing my film at the correct times and temperatures as indicated, but I am doing room temperature RA-4. I will try changing the developing and blix time, as well as using a rinse between the developer and blix and perhaps a stop bath. Thanks again for the help!

Wayne · Sep 5, 2017

Are your chemicals hitting the center of the print before you begin rolling? I'm not familiar with Jobo drums but most drums have the space between free ends of the paper at the bottom when its horizontal, so when you pour the chems in the paper stays dry. If you were to pour in the chems and then place it somewhere in the opposite orientation the chemicals might be touching the center of the paper. This is probably not your problem but its worth knowing and your description of a line down the middle made me think of it.

Young He · Sep 5, 2017

Wayne, the Jobo drums have a small cup for holding the chemicals before you start rolling. I angle the drum over the roller so that I waste as little time as possible to lower the drum when the timer starts, and I might have angled it a bit too much and some of the chemicals might have splashed out. Thanks for the advice, I will try it out as soon as I can.

BMbikerider · Sep 10, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
The OP is unclear, so the answers seem to wander a bit.

C41 MUST be done at 100F. RA4 (not RA41) can be done from 68F to 100F with adjustment in time. Usually 2' at 68 and 1' at 100F. IDK about current Fuji paper though. It worked with the older papers.

A stop between the Developer and Blix with paper or film will help uniformity and prevention of stains.

PE

Thanks, more or less what I said.

RA-4 Problem

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