RA-4 Printing - Mixing & Preservation Help

[Brent Waterworth]

I know these topics have come up in the past on various threads with a lot of a scattered yet helpful insight - but some dating back over a decade ago - and after doing as much digging as I could in the archives on here to try to find some answers, I figured I’d make a fresh new thread to gain some fresh new perspective.

I’m in need of some help here and this is mainly a two part inquiry regarding Kodak Ektacokor RA/RT chemistry mixing and preservation for long periods of time.

As many of you know, it’s been a little hard sourcing the chemistry in recent days and I was fortunate enough to find both the Ektacolor RA Developer Replenisher RT and the Ektacolor Bleach-Fix & Replenisher RT - but both being in very large quantities (see attached). My end goal here is to pre-mix both of these concentrates into 5 Gal. Doran tanks w/ floating lids to then use w/ my Fujimoto CP-31 over time & keeping the rest of the concentrates out of the original packaging & into large amber glass bottles to hopefully preserve for as long as possible.

This leads me to Part I:
When researching to find the formulas to mix up the concentrates, I’m either getting extremely large yielding formulas, they’re including Starters or Additives (that I don’t have because I couldn’t find them anywhere), or I’m getting something extremely small like to yield only 1 L. (for example).

I did some math (disclaimer: I’m not very good at it but tried my best) and my question is the part at the end where you add additional water to finish off the mixing level and I’m solving for yielding 5 Gal., do I just do the math for the initial water base plus the 3 part concentrates (A, B, & C) then just add the rest of the water to reach the 5 gallon level at the end? Here’s what that formula looks like (for the Developer) after taking a swing at it:

DEVELOPER (to yield 5 Gal.)
Water (Base) = 15.14 L.
Part A = .956 L.
Part B = .420 L.
Part C = .956 L.
Water (Top-Off) = 1.473 L.

Does this seem right? If so, the same rules apply for the Bleach-Fix as well, correct?

And now for Part II:
Some people have sworn by premixing all of your concentrate and storing in specific plastics or dark glass bottles, others have had success by keeping it in the original packaging in introducing inert gas or glass marbles for any levels of oxygen that come inside of the packaging, and some have said no matter what you can only squeeze 6-8 weeks max regardless of your plan of attack.

Due to very limited storage space with my current living situation, pre-mixing all concentrates to then store is out of the question so I will have to opt for preserving the concentrates and mixing into 5 gallon tanks as needed. Will my plan of storing the concentrates in large amber glass jugs and introducing inert gas when the levels reach below the cap line be enough to store this stuff for long periods of time? If so, what would be a hypothetical life expectancy for this method?

Thanks in advance, im obviously new to this & don’t want to blow it when mixing for 5 Gal. & being out lots of money & wasting chemistry that’s become so hard to come by.

 

[MattKing]

It might help if you shared with us the mixing instructions you based your calculations on.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

It might help if you shared with us the mixing instructions you based your calculations on.

Matt, this is what I was referencing when going about my calculations.

EDIT: I have a whole sheet of paper with the working equation but I pretty much took the instructions to yield 1L. for the RA/RT Replenisher Developer & did the conversions & math to yield for 5 Gal.

 

[cmacd123]

it is typical for the data sheets to give the values to make 1 Litre. you then just multiply for however many liters you need.

a US gallon is about 3.8 Liters, so if you require 5 US gallons you need 19 liters. so Just multiply every item in the data sheet by 19.

and yes, their was another recent thread where the need for the "starter" was explained.

 

[mshchem]

I know these topics have come up in the past on various threads with a lot of a scattered yet helpful insight - but some dating back over a decade ago - and after doing as much digging as I could in the archives on here to try to find some answers, I figured I’d make a fresh new thread to gain some fresh new perspective.

I’m in need of some help here and this is mainly a two part inquiry regarding Kodak Ektacokor RA/RT chemistry mixing and preservation for long periods of time.

As many of you know, it’s been a little hard sourcing the chemistry in recent days and I was fortunate enough to find both the Ektacolor RA Developer Replenisher RT and the Ektacolor Bleach-Fix & Replenisher RT - but both being in very large quantities (see attached). My end goal here is to pre-mix both of these concentrates into 5 Gal. Doran tanks w/ floating lids to then use w/ my Fujimoto CP-31 over time & keeping the rest of the concentrates out of the original packaging & into large amber glass bottles to hopefully preserve for as long as possible.

This leads me to Part I:
When researching to find the formulas to mix up the concentrates, I’m either getting extremely large yielding formulas, they’re including Starters or Additives (that I don’t have because I couldn’t find them anywhere), or I’m getting something extremely small like to yield only 1 L. (for example).

I did some math (disclaimer: I’m not very good at it but tried my best) and my question is the part at the end where you add additional water to finish off the mixing level and I’m solving for yielding 5 Gal., do I just do the math for the initial water base plus the 3 part concentrates (A, B, & C) then just add the rest of the water to reach the 5 gallon level at the end? Here’s what that formula looks like (for the Developer) after taking a swing at it:

DEVELOPER (to yield 5 Gal.)
Water (Base) = 15.14 L.
Part A = .956 L.
Part B = .420 L.
Part C = .956 L.
Water (Top-Off) = 1.473 L.

Does this seem right? If so, the same rules apply for the Bleach-Fix as well, correct?

And now for Part II:
Some people have sworn by premixing all of your concentrate and storing in specific plastics or dark glass bottles, others have had success by keeping it in the original packaging in introducing inert gas or glass marbles for any levels of oxygen that come inside of the packaging, and some have said no matter what you can only squeeze 6-8 weeks max regardless of your plan of attack.

Due to very limited storage space with my current living situation, pre-mixing all concentrates to then store is out of the question so I will have to opt for preserving the concentrates and mixing into 5 gallon tanks as needed. Will my plan of storing the concentrates in large amber glass jugs and introducing inert gas when the levels reach below the cap line be enough to store this stuff for long periods of time? If so, what would be a hypothetical life expectancy for this method?

Thanks in advance, im obviously new to this & don’t want to blow it when mixing for 5 Gal. & being out lots of money & wasting chemistry that’s become so hard to come by.

Hi Brent,
The final water is added "dilute to final volume".

So first, you start with water, add each component, in order, with adequate stirring, not so much to mix in a bunch of air, then you add water to get to your desired volume.

You can indeed divide the concentrates. Key is to fill your bottle to the very top, use glass or a PET bottle. I have stored this type of bleach fixer in smaller bottles for two years or longer.

The developer can be split as well, but one needs to be careful to use proper containers. Personally I don't split up the developer components.

Current situation, The Sino Promise Kodak situation is a mess, the last I looked. I have started using Fuji. The developer replenisher for Fuji is called P1, i.e. Print bath 1. The Fuji stuff is 1 part, no 3 separate components/bottles. I have been using this with a little Durst roller transport processor works great.

Remember that you are making Replenisher with the developer chemistry you have. It needs to be diluted further with water, and if you were using a minilab you would need starter. The starter isn't as big of a deal with most RT machines as they don't have constant automatic replenishment.

I have a bottle of Ektacolor starter, I use it, but with RA4 it's not as big of a deal as with film.

Watch the color of your developer, it can get a bit yellow, but if it gets dark, it can get almost black it's done for.

Hopefully this helps.

Best Regards, Mike

 

[mshchem]

The good old days of color printing

 

[Brent Waterworth]

it is typical for the data sheets to give the values to make 1 Litre. you then just multiply for however many liters you need.

a US gallon is about 3.8 Liters, so if you require 5 US gallons you need 19 liters. so Just multiply every item in the data sheet by 19.

and yes, their was another recent thread where the need for the "starter" was explained.

Makes sense! That being said, on the data sheet attached they have 2 different values for Part B between the 10L package & the 25/75 Gal. package. Why is that? I would just follow the directions for the 10L. values, correct?

Thanks,
-b

 

[Brent Waterworth]

Hi Brent,
The final water is added "dilute to final volume".

So first, you start with water, add each component, in order, with adequate stirring, not so much to mix in a bunch of air, then you add water to get to your desired volume.

You can indeed divide the concentrates. Key is to fill your bottle to the very top, use glass or a PET bottle. I have stored this type of bleach fixer in smaller bottles for two years or longer.

The developer can be split as well, but one needs to be careful to use proper containers. Personally I don't split up the developer components.

Current situation, The Sino Promise Kodak situation is a mess, the last I looked. I have started using Fuji. The developer replenisher for Fuji is called P1, i.e. Print bath 1. The Fuji stuff is 1 part, no 3 separate components/bottles. I have been using this with a little Durst roller transport processor works great.

Remember that you are making Replenisher with the developer chemistry you have. It needs to be diluted further with water, and if you were using a minilab you would need starter. The starter isn't as big of a deal with most RT machines as they don't have constant automatic replenishment.

I have a bottle of Ektacolor starter, I use it, but with RA4 it's not as big of a deal as with film.

Watch the color of your developer, it can get a bit yellow, but if it gets dark, it can get almost black it's done for.

Hopefully this helps.

Best Regards, Mike

Mike, first off i really appreciate you being on it with the replies - it’s been super helpful.

When you say you don’t split up the Developer like you have with the Bleach-Fixer concentrates, does that mean you choose to pre-mix up all your Developer parts & store that way?

Additionally - when you say to further dilute the Developer/Replenisher, is this something different than the initial mixing of the Developer & something outside of the mixing instructions that I need to follow?

If i’m understanding correctly, I mix up the developer + BLIX concentrates accordingly, then I need to (also) have a separate solution as the Replenisher (using the same exact 3-Part Developer concentrates)?

RE: The Starter - I think i read somewhere that you can work without it using a table top processor but the first few prints come out slightly “off” in terms of color & need to be color balanced to compensate?

Thanks again, I plan on attempting mixing tomorrow & printing by the weekend (fingers crossed)

 

[mshchem]

Brent, here are mixing instructions on my bottle of Ektacolor starter

 

[mshchem]

Looks like you have the RA RT version so if you substitute water for the starter you would take 800mL of your mixed replenisher and add 200mL of water to get a working tank solution. Any of your mixed RT Replenisher left over can be used to replenish your 5 gallon working tank solution.

 

[mshchem]

With the previously available, lovely Kodak 5L of developer replenisher package, it was only about 12 bucks to make up over 6 liters of working tank solution. So yes I mixed up 5 L of replenisher and bottled it off. Keeps for about 5-6 months unused in a full bottle. I think the Durst machine I have is kinda hard on the developer so I replenish every 10 or so sheets. If it starts to get dark I make up fresh. RT machines can be more trouble than help in low volume printing. I use a Jobo too.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

Looks like you have the RA RT version so if you substitute water for the starter you would take 800mL of your mixed replenisher and add 200mL of water to get a working tank solution. Any of your mixed RT Replenisher left over can be used to replenish your 5 gallon working tank solution.

Oh okay so let me know if i’m understanding this correctly in terms of process & terminology:

I do the calculations & mix the concentrates to yield my desired amount of 5 Gal. (Developer). When using for an RT machine like my CP-31 or your Durst, you then need to use (Starter) or dilute it (if Starter isn’t an option) to then make a (Working Solution) that is suitable for theseRT machines.

I also need to “replenish” the Developer Tank containing the diluted working solution of my machine with (X amount) of non-diluted Developer every (X sheets) of paper ran through it to keep the levels right.

I think what confuses me is how the developer is also called replenisher & the thought of the same mixed batch being used for (2) different things…1 as a mixed developer “working solution” & the other as a “replenisher”.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

With the previously available, lovely Kodak 5L of developer replenisher package, it was only about 12 bucks to make up over 6 liters of working tank solution. So yes I mixed up 5 L of replenisher and bottled it off. Keeps for about 5-6 months unused in a full bottle. I think the Durst machine I have is kinda hard on the developer so I replenish every 10 or so sheets. If it starts to get dark I make up fresh. RT machines can be more trouble than help in low volume printing. I use a Jobo too.

Seems ideal. I wish i didn’t have such high volumes of the chemistry as I don’t want to mix it or store it incorrectly & now i literally dumped hundres of dollars down the drain.

 

[lantau]

I think what confuses me is how the developer is also called replenisher & the thought of the same mixed batch being used for (2) different things…1 as a mixed developer “working solution” & the other as a “replenisher”.

What you are calling developer is replenisher, actually. You can make developer (also referred to as tank solution) from the replenisher by adding water and starter.

From experience we know that in most, if not all, home use cases you will get away with not using starter. Instead you add water and... more water in place of starter.

I have starter and so I'm using it. The biggest practical effect will be that warm, fuzzy feeling you get by doing it right.

 

[mshchem]

What you are calling developer is replenisher, actually. You can make developer (also referred to as tank solution) from the replenisher by adding water and starter.

From experience we know that in most, if not all, home use cases you will get away with not using starter. Instead you add water and... more water in place of starter.

I have starter and so I'm using it. The biggest practical effect will be that warm, fuzzy feeling you get by doing it right.

Exactly

 

[mshchem]

One thing. If you read the label carefully, the developer replenisher is labeled "developer replenisher" the bleach fix is labeled "Bleach-Fix and Replenisher" . The working solution (tank solution) and replenisher is the same. The bleach fixer doesn't require further dilution.

 

[mshchem]

When I use my little RCP-20 I set it up use it for one session, then take it down, spend a half hour washing all the rollers, flush out the developer pump etc etc.

This is why tubes and trays are so popular.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

Okay thank you both i think i understand it now.

Pretty much i need to mix the Replenisher (Developer) to yield my 5 Gal. desired amount. Then when i’m ready to use it in my CP-31, I need to dilute it prior by taking 800mL. of the initial Replenisher mixture & adding 200mL. of Water to yield 1L. (Tank Solution) -Then double that to yield 2L. for the Developer Bath in the processor since it needs 2L. volume for each bath.

For the Bleach-Fix i’m just taking 2L. from my initial 5 Gal. mixture - per session. (this doesn’t require any dilution or replenishment during sessions).

Then for “Replenishing” the (Developer), I just need to add (X) amount of the initial non-diluted mixture for every (X) pieces of paper im running through the machine.

Am I understanding this correctly now?

 

[mshchem]

Okay thank you both i think i understand it now.

Pretty much i need to mix the Replenisher (Developer) to yield my 5 Gal. desired amount. Then when i’m ready to use it in my CP-31, I need to dilute it prior by taking 800mL. of the initial Replenisher mixture & adding 200mL. of Water to yield 1L. (Tank Solution) -Then double that to yield 2L. for the Developer Bath in the processor since it needs 2L. volume for each bath.

For the Bleach-Fix i’m just taking 2L. from my initial 5 Gal. mixture - per session. (this doesn’t require any dilution or replenishment during sessions).

Then for “Replenishing” the (Developer), I just need to add (X) amount of the initial non-diluted mixture for every (X) pieces of paper im running through the machine.

Am I understanding this correctly now?

You have it! This can be confusing as can be. First time someone asked me what size tank I was using I thought they were talking about my Paterson film developing tank. Good luck. I hope you have a great time.

 

[mshchem]

One other thing, I misspoke re: Fuji P1 RA4 Replenisher, it's two parts not one.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

You have it! This can be confusing as can be. First time someone asked me what size tank I was using I thought they were talking about my Paterson film developing tank. Good luck. I hope you have a great time.

Ahhh there we go. It took me a little to understand it all but now that I do it all makes perfect sense & is actually quite straight forward.

I just started portioning out my chemistry, starting with Part B of the Bleach-Fix & damn is it a lot of liquid. On my way to go get more large amber jugs to put this stuff in. I can’t imagine the amount of storage space I would need mixing it all up at once.

I really appreciate the helpful & timely insight!

 

[Brent Waterworth]

Last question!

Which directions do I follow when mixing my Developer/Replenisher & Bleach-Fix Replenisher solutions?

There’s (2) different instructions for mixing the 10L bottle compared to the 25/75 Gal. bottles (see attached)

I’m assuming I would follow the 25/75 Gal. mixing instructions?

(Bleach-Fix only offers 10 L. + 25 Gal. but there’s (2) options nonetheless)

Thanks,
-b

 

[mshchem]

Last question!

Which directions do I follow when mixing my Developer/Replenisher & Bleach-Fix Replenisher solutions?

There’s (2) different instructions for mixing the 10L bottle compared to the 25/75 Gal. bottles (see attached)

I’m assuming I would follow the 25/75 Gal. mixing instructions?

(Bleach-Fix only offers 10 L. + 25 Gal. but there’s (2) options nonetheless)

Thanks,
-b

Looking at your original picture the mixing instructions are printed on the bottle of the blix. There should be instructions for the developer replenisher in the box as well.

The blix bottle says made in usa, which I think, means it's a bit older than the developer replenisher which shows made in China.

 

[Brent Waterworth]

Looking at your original picture the mixing instructions are printed on the bottle of the blix. There should be instructions for the developer replenisher in the box as well.

The blix bottle says made in usa, which I think, means it's a bit older than the developer replenisher which shows made in China.

Yeah both Blix bottles have instructions for mixing to yield 1L. but the Developer Replenisher bottle doesn’t for some reason & neither does the box? It just has general information in a few languages & instructions to mix the entire contents without giving any info on measurements - only telling you to use “2 bottles of A B & C”…very strange

EDIT: but after doing some digging online I did find those instructions I attached in the previous post which breaks down how to yield 1L. for all of the Ektacolor/RA-4 types - but they have the (2) options to go off of - 10L. or 25/75 Gal. (i’m in between both of those options with my Developer Replenisher + my Bleach-Fix Replenisher package sizes).
-b

 

[Brent Waterworth]

i got another question:

how often am I supposed to replenish the developer?
what do you look for or notice when the developer is in need of replenishment?
does it just lack punch or saturation?

right now i'm only doing 8x10 sheets of paper.

thanks,
-b