RA-4 nightmare!!!

halfaman · Feb 27, 2021

Today printing session has been a nightmare. I got constantly streaks in the prints and it is driving me crazy because I can't indentify where the problem is. The streaks are always horizontal lines with an apparent random distribution and size between prints, they have different color balance and lighter density.

Next image shows the print with the most severe defect, others are lighter than this or with least streaks.

Details of my equipment:

- Enlarger: Durst L1200 + CLS 501 color head + Femobox 69N+ Rodagon 105mm f/5.6
- Paper: Fuji Crystal Archive DPII glossy 24x30,5 cm (9,5x12'')
- Development: Jobo CPP-2 machine + Jobo 2830 tank
- Chemistry: Fuji Hunt MP60 developer replenisher + Fuji Hunt MP108 Bleach-Fix, used one-shot

The setup is my usual besides de Jobo CPP-2, I have just bought it and it is the first time I use it. The machines seems very clean and chemistry goes in and out the tank through the lift without any noticiable problem. The tank has been with me since the very beginning of my RA-4 adventure 8 years ago.

I use the chemistry one-shot as mentioned with the following process:

- Tank warming: Around 60 seconds.
- Presoak: 45 seconds with running water at more or less 38º C.
- Developer: 45 seconds at 38º C, according to manufacturer instructions
- Blix: 45 seconds at 38º C, according to manufacturer instructions
- Rinse: 4x30 seconds with running water exchanged between rinses.

Tank and cog lid are washed between print runs with running water.

Things I have tried already with no improvement:
- Add an 3% acetic acid stop bath between developer and blix.
- Increase chemistry volume per run from 120 ml to 200 ml (minimum volume of 2830 tank is 100 ml)
- Change to another box of paper.

Any educated guess about what it is going on? I am really confused...

Wayne · Feb 27, 2021

That's really weird because the lines are neither parallel to the paper edge or each other. I also see a curved darker vertical line on the right side which may be completely unrelated

Sirius Glass · Feb 27, 2021

Lets start with a photograph of the negative and work from there. Either the problems are in the negative or not, but lets see if the negative is a culprit or innocent.

halfaman · Feb 27, 2021

Wayne said:
That's really weird because the lines are neither parallel to the paper edge or each other. I also see a curved darker vertical line on the right side which may be completely unrelated

Yes, the vertical streak is another thing. It appears once in a while when I don't put a stop bath between developer and blix like in this print. I thought I would fix all with the stop bath but the horizontal lines remain even they were not so severe.

Sirius Glass said:
Lets start with a photograph of the negative and work from there. Either the problems are in the negative or not, but lets see if the negative is a culprit or innocent.

I have the negatives in the lab but, as mentioned before, the streaks appear randomly. Also I scanned it several times, last one yesterday to print an inkjet contrast mask for today session. I don't think it is the negative to blame.

Thanks both for answering!

Mick Fagan · Feb 27, 2021

There is a slight possibility of your pre-soak doing something.

Many years ago, probably around 30 years ago when RA4 was newer and I was using Agfa paper and chemistry, as well as a Jobo with the same 2830 tank, I had unexplainable streaks in my prints. This was at the end of a long and very dry summer, so possibly a little different as you are coming out of winter.

The Agfa technicians told me that as the dams dried up, water authorities often add a flocculant to the water to make solids drop to the bottom of the dam. They also mentioned that water authorities sometimes add things to our drinking water supplies which may make very slight differences to colour paper, less to B&W paper.

I stopped doing the pre-soak and my prints were perfect from then on. For the remainder of time I was using my Jobo for colour paper processing (RA4) I never again used a pre-soak. I switched to a Durst Printo within a couple of years from that episode, so I have no further experience with colour RA4 printing in a rotary process.

Mick.

foc · Feb 28, 2021

Mick Fagan said:
There is a slight possibility of your pre-soak doing something.

Many years ago, probably around 30 years ago when RA4 was newer and I was using Agfa paper and chemistry, as well as a Jobo with the same 2830 tank, I had unexplainable streaks in my prints. This was at the end of a long and very dry summer, so possibly a little different as you are coming out of winter.

The Agfa technicians told me that as the dams dried up, water authorities often add a flocculant to the water to make solids drop to the bottom of the dam. They also mentioned that water authorities sometimes add things to our drinking water supplies which may make very slight differences to colour paper, less to B&W paper.

I stopped doing the pre-soak and my prints were perfect from then on. For the remainder of time I was using my Jobo for colour paper processing (RA4) I never again used a pre-soak. I switched to a Durst Printo within a couple of years from that episode, so I have no further experience with colour RA4 printing in a rotary process.

Mick.

+1

Try without the presoak.

Bikerider · Feb 28, 2021

First Question - why pre-soak? It is 100% un-necessary. The emulsion will absorb water as you would expect but that will delay the immediate effect of the developer and possibly give a colour shift when it does kick in. I have been printing RA4 images since around 1992/3 and have never pre-soaked, either film or paper. Try it without the pre-soak, give the developer the recommended 45seconds @38C and see what you get. It cannot be worse than this.

halfaman · Feb 28, 2021

Mick Fagan said:
There is a slight possibility of your pre-soak doing something.

foc said:
Try without the presoak.

Bikerider said:
Try it without the pre-soak, give the developer the recommended 45seconds @38C and see what you get. It cannot be worse than this.

Ok, no presoak noted.

Compared with the previous Jobo machines I have used (CPE2, CPP3), CPP2 lift raises the tank less to drain the liquids from the tank. It is good because the movement is smoother and less abrupt but the drain is slower. Could be that more water from the presoak is left over the paper and it is causing the streaks. I will come back tomorrow to the lab and check it out.

Thanks for your answers!

Lachlan Young · Feb 28, 2021

I'd avoid a presoak & possibly investigate using a stop bath. I think it may also have to do with fill/ drain times.

Ben 4 · Feb 28, 2021

My experience with RA-4 (not Jobo—Beseler drums on a roller base) a number of years ago is that I got streaks if I skipped the stop bath. In his many posts about home RA-4 here, Photo Engineer said that this was a possibility, and in my case it turned out to be true.

--Ben

Sirius Glass · Feb 28, 2021

Ben 4 said:
My experience with RA-4 (not Jobo—Beseler drums on a roller base) a number of years ago is that I got streaks if I skipped the stop bath. In his many posts about home RA-4 here, Photo Engineer said that this was a possibility, and in my case it turned out to be true.

--Ben

PE often stated that using stop bath expunged many sins.

Wayne · Feb 28, 2021

At the same time many skip the stop and never have any troubles, like me. I think PE also said streaking got more likely the larger the print. I don't print larger than 11x14 and I always make sure to agitate vigorously as soon as it hits the blix. That's in trays though, so I can control the agitation.

1kgcoffee · Feb 28, 2021

I've had similar issues with bad blix. More blotchy, but similar results.

DREW WILEY · Feb 28, 2021

I do up to 30X40 inch RA4 prints in drums. I briefly presoak 100% of the time. I also used a weak stop bath 100% of the time, followed extra insurance of a brief plain water rinse with steep drum tilting to make sure no active chem is still "hiding" somewhere in the drum, like at the bottom. An usual feature my processor has is one eccentric (off-center) roller out of the four. This gently rocks the drum while rotating it, specifically to defeat any chem track marks and assure even processing, even with minimal solution volume.

But ribs inside the drum can cause streaks too, due to uneven flow patterns, especially when solution volumes are not ample enough to keep the paper fully submerged the whole time. I can't address Jobo issues specifically because my own drums fill and drain way faster than the Jobo ones. I actually rotate the drum at high RPM when filling, slow it down to a lower setting once the developer has reached the whole print surface after a few turns, then during the dev drain step itself, also rotate the drum a little to make sure no linear streaks develop. It makes a difference.

It's hard to do this consistently if you are allowing only a short dev and blix time like 45 sec. Why the rush? That in itself is a potential source of voodoo outcome. Your fill and drain steps take up too big a percentage of the cumulative time it to make things reliable and accurately repeatable. I personally standardize on 2 min dev and blix steps for that very reason.

halfaman · Mar 1, 2021

Mistery solved!

Long story short. The lift not only drains more slowly than others I used (more than 30 seconds for 120 ml) but also some ammount of liquid of the last bath remains inside. Because I leave the lift up between prints, when I was putting the tank back for the next run I was introducing inside some water from the last rinse of the previous print. And THAT was causing the streaks during the tank warming in all prints... Besides the first one of the session (a "small" detail I didn't pay enough attention).

Solution: Put down the lift when each print is finished to drain the water inside (it drains through the chemical inlet!).

I also remove the tank and put down the lift after the stop bath rinse, to avoid introducing water into the Blix bath and dilute it.

This lift seems to me like a serious design failure. I don't know if this was fixed somewhere during the CPP-2 product life because I would like to have it.

Many thanks for all your answers!!

brbo · Mar 1, 2021

Precisely why I was always reluctant to buy a Jobo with the lift. Rotation during pouring in/out of the chemicals seemed nice, but cleaning the lift always made me uneasy. Especially if you are reusing chemicals like I do for C-41.

But, obviously it's not that big of a problem if nobody thought of it when troubleshooting your problem...

Sirius Glass · Mar 1, 2021

I have had no problems with the tanks and drums draining quickly with the Jobo lift. It sound like your lift is not lifting high enough. The lift lever was broken on mine so I just lift the tank or drum has high as it will go and hold it up until completely drained, about 15 seconds at the longest for the drums.

halfaman · Mar 1, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
It sound like your lift is not lifting high enough.

That is absolutely what seems to happen, the tank drain position on the CPP-2 lift is about 10º lower than on the lift of my Jobo CPE-2. But it seems to be working ok, it just doesn't lift the tank high enough.

CPP2 on the left, CPE2 on the right

In some other time I will try to look or ask Jobo if it can lift higher.

mklw1954 · Mar 1, 2021

For RA-4 I don't use a JOBO system but drums (found Cibachrome drums to be best) and a Unicolor roller base. I used to get streaks only when I drained the drum too long, as in draining until discharge of all pre-soak water, developer, and blix stopped. If I add the next chemical when the vast majority of the previous chemical has drained but is still dripping a little, I get no streaks. I pre-soak, don't use stop between steps, and the prints are great. Maybe you are draining your drum too long, possibly because of the limited lift you've noted..

Wayne · Mar 1, 2021

Glad you got it figured out! And I'm glad I've not yet suffered any of the myriad problems that can arise, other than those caused by my photography.

RA-4 nightmare!!!

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