RA-4 investment - Kodak or Tetenal

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

I'm looking to buy a larger batch of RA-4 chemicals, as I'm approaching the end of my first 5L batch of Kodak Ektachrome.

I've had so-so results so far with this kit, but need to do more testing. I'm hoping to get a big batch with which I can make consistent small supplies from for hopefully consistent testing and results in prints.

One issue I had with the Ektachrome is part A of the Blix slightly solidified at the botom ad there are small white crystals (or something) that I have to filter out (by using coffee filters).

My usual supplier offers Kodak Ektachrome and Tetenal Monoline CD-SLR (not sure if this is all the accurate name):

https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-ra4-developer-4x5l-295-p.asp
https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-ra-4-developer-4x10l-3880-p.asp

And with each, their equivalent Blix.

The Tetenal is a chunk cheaper for double the amout of chemicals.

If the results are very similar I'm obviously more keen on the cheaper and larger supply of the Tetenal. Any advice would be appreciated.

PS. Why on earth is the official Tetenal site charging over 6x the amount for the same chemical package? https://www.tetenaluk.com/tetenal-ra-4-colour-developer-cd-slr-sp-80-for-4-x-102591

Edit: others seem to be selling inflated prices too - am I missing something? https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Tete...D-SLR-SP-80-For-4x-10L/product/102591/102591/

Thanks!

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Also FYI, I use a Jobo with one-shot amounts (of ~120ml)

pentaxuser · Nov 24, 2019

If these are definitely the same product then what you have discovered is what I think I have reluctantly discovered as well. There is no rhyme nor reason to prices. Nothing is based on any underlying immutable "given" which underpins the price. The best "given" is that age-old maxim. Charge what you think the market(i.e. your customers) will bear

Buy from whomsoever is the cheapest on each and every occasion and never assume that there is one "good" supplier of anything price-wise. As Mr Lewis says on TV "these people are not your friends, they are in business to maximise their profits"

Be what is called a "price tart" and buy from the lowest bidder. On the price spectrum you have to decide where sellers in general are on the "Scrooge to Bob Cratchit looking Tiny Tim " scale. I remain unconvinced that things have really changed since the snow started falling on the East End of London that famous Christmas Eve

pentaxuser

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Haha, thanks @pentaxuser for the pricing and overall philisophical advice. I live in East London so will keep my eyes peeled for the Dickens characters

I'm leaning towards Kodak, despite the cost. It'll probably last me for a good amount of time.

Also: I've found Kodak even cheaper for both 4x5l dev and blix..

pentaxuser · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
I'm leaning towards Kodak, despite the cost. It'll probably last me for a good amount of time.

Also: I've found Kodak even cheaper for both 4x5l dev and blix..

Well as you may have discovered as I have is that Kodak makes no chemistry but contracts the manufacture of said products. Tetenal does make the chemistry and may make the chemistry for Kodak. The key question for me would be: Is the Kodak made to a higher spec and if so how does this higher spec translate into "improvements" compared to Tetenal so that Kodak is better value for money.

I don't know the answer to this but I suspect that both will produce equally good prints so I suspect we'd need to look for other things such as longevity of either the prints or the chemicals

The same questions need to be asked about for instance Ilford MG developer compared to the much cheaper Champion Amfix developer

pentaxuser

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

The Tetenal product works fine, and dilutes to make a lot of developer. The 40L figure is for replenisher not the starting tank solution of e.g approx. 500ml rep. + 50ml starter + 450ml water. I use the developer 1+19 from concentrate for one-shot Jobo processing without a starter.

MattKing · Nov 24, 2019

By the way, the Kodak development chemistry is the RA-4 based Ektacolor, not the E6 based Ektachrome.
And very few things nowadays are actually made by the company whose brand name is on the package.

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
The Tetenal product works fine, and dilutes to make a lot of developer. The 40L figure is for replenisher not the starting tank solution of e.g approx. 500ml rep. + 50ml starter + 450ml water. I use the developer 1+19 from concentrate for one-shot Jobo processing without a starter.

Oh wow, so you're acually able to make 80l of one-shot? I was a bit put off by this thread I discovered after posting: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ra4-processing.157640/

MattKing said:
By the way, the Kodak development chemistry is the RA-4 based Ektacolor, not the E6 based Ektachrome.

Ah yeah, I just mistyped, it's the Ektacolor I've been using.

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Oh wow, so you're acually able to make 80l of one-shot?

Yes. It works fine. I've spent a lot of time recently on getting back up and running with RA4, and now seem to have a decent workflow set up. I'm running a 12"x10" print through 200ml solution but that isn't set in stone.

Steps:

35ºC
1 min pre-wash
1 min dev
30 secs stop bath (dilute acetic acid)
1 min bleach-fix
washing

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
Yes. It works fine. I've spent a lot of time recently on getting back up and running with RA4, and now seem to have a decent workflow set up. I'm running a 12"x10" print through 200ml solution but that isn't set in stone.

Steps:

35ºC
1 min pre-wash
1 min dev
30 secs stop bath (dilute acetic acid)
1 min bleach-fix
washing

Great, thanks for the info. I've been having real issues with muddy / lifted blacks and colour shifts with the Kodak (I'm sure Kodak chemicals are fine and there's an issue elsewhere). But I noticed a real drop in temp with dev in the tank so have been increasing temp so that it averages out to the correct temperature..

I was going to get Kodak Indicator Stop Bath to add a stop step to my process but I'm on my last litre of Ektachrome so I'm just going to run some tests and things.

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

I had some problems with older stocks of cut sheet Supra Endura paper which had fogged. RA-4 is 'process to completion' so I'm not too worried about exact temperatures etc. as long as the print looks good. One note though is that I found Pro 400H very easy to print on the Fuji paper but the Kodak Portra stock took longer to find correct filtration. I'd like to shoot some C-41 5"x4" this autumn (leaves etc) but not sure when I'll get to it.

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
I had some problems with older stocks of cut sheet Supra Endura paper which had fogged. RA-4 is 'process to completion' so I'm not too worried about exact temperatures etc. as long as the print looks good. One note though is that I found Pro 400H very easy to print on the Fuji paper but the Kodak Portra stock took longer to find correct filtration. I'd like to shoot some C-41 5"x4" this autumn (leaves etc) but not sure when I'll get to it.

Interesting, what exactly does "process to completion" mean? I shoot (so print) Portra 400 almost exclusively...

My plan tomorrow is to test the same print exposure with a series of longer dev times (and possibly increased temps).

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

You would want to ask a technical expert like 'Photo Engineer' here for the proper explanation but it should mean that once you get to a certain point the image on the paper doesn't change, apart from eventual fogging etc. Unlike film processing where too long in the developer will lead to over development.

What make of enlarger are you using? - I'm working with a De Vere 5108.

AgX · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
My usual supplier offers Kodak Ektachrome and Tetenal Monoline CD-SLR

The special feature of the Monoline range ist that there only is one concentrate per compound.
However that range was made for minilabs. But Tetenal no longer serves minilabs with the respective products.

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
What make of enlarger are you using?

Durst M670. Got with the Jobo and a bunch of well-looked after equipment last year but only started using the enlarger very recently.

AgX said:
The special feature of the Monoline range ist that there only is one concentrate per compound.

Yeah I noticed the one concentrate feature, is this good for anything other than mixing slightly easier?

Is it still fine for small batch one shot rotary use though? Tom - is this the Tetenal line you use?

dkonigs · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Also: I've found Kodak even cheaper for both 4x5l dev and blix..

I wish I could find this 4x5L developer kit in the US. The only vendor sites I've found it on have been in the UK. As such, I recently just ordered the straight-up 10L kit from Adorama and plan to mix/bottle when I'm ready to start attempting RA4 myself (hopefully in a couple weeks at most).

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Durst M670. Got with the Jobo and a bunch of well-looked after equipment last year but only started using the enlarger very recently.

Yeah I noticed the one concentrate feature, is this good for anything other than mixing slightly easier?

Is it still fine for small batch one shot rotary use though? Tom - is this the Tetenal line you use?

Hi yes, I use the mono concentrate - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-ra-4-developer-4x10l-3880-p.asp - I suspect it doesn't last as long as the Kodak one, but they should be both function equivalently and the recommendations for starter additions (if using) are very similar.

To provide context for Jobo use I dilute the concentrate 50ml + 950ml water, mix up, and place in the Jobo for tempering. This 1000ml solution then provides enough for 5 prints at which point I make up another batch. I've not finalised replenishment rates for the blix yet, but am currently working with 20ml per print, changed after every 10 prints, i.e 200ml fresh blix (Kodak in my case) + 800ml old blix. If this seems insufficient I'll increase the replenishment rate.

Mike Chalmers · Nov 24, 2019

Thanks Tom, this is all really interesting to me, I appreciate you sharing your method.

You’ve likely got me sold on the tetenal and your bloc method makes sense so look forward to trying out this system when I get new stuff.

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Thanks Tom, this is all really interesting to me, I appreciate you sharing your method.

You’ve likely got me sold on the tetenal and your bloc method makes sense so look forward to trying out this system when I get new stuff.

I'd like to share this as there isn't much information available using the products currently on the market. The stop bath I'm using is a simple acetic acid solution at 1.2% - in this case the Adox product diluted 1+49 - available from silverprint - https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Adox-Acetic-Acid-60-1000-ml-Concentrate/product/42895/42895/ - I see Ag also sell something similar from Tetenal in a 5L packing - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-acetic-acid-5l-3737-p.asp . These plain solutions have the advantage of no dyes included which apparently on occasion may impact negatively with colour printing.

AgX · Nov 24, 2019

Mike Chalmers said:
Yeah I noticed the one concentrate feature, is this good for anything other than mixing slightly easier?

No, according to Tetenal the idea was just to make mixing easirer and by by this prevent mixing errors.

DREW WILEY · Nov 24, 2019

I've interchangeably used Kodak RA/RT, Arista, and Silver Pixel. They seem identical. The selection in Europe is probably different. I had bad luck with Tetenal; but that was long ago, and it probably wasn't fresh to begin with. I do one-shot drum development, and never mix more than I need for a single session or day; and that might be one reason I get such consistent results.

Mike Chalmers · Nov 25, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
I'd like to share this as there isn't much information available using the products currently on the market. The stop bath I'm using is a simple acetic acid solution at 1.2% - in this case the Adox product diluted 1+49 - available from silverprint - https://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Adox-Acetic-Acid-60-1000-ml-Concentrate/product/42895/42895/ - I see Ag also sell something similar from Tetenal in a 5L packing - https://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/tetenal-acetic-acid-5l-3737-p.asp . These plain solutions have the advantage of no dyes included which apparently on occasion may impact negatively with colour printing.

Okay thanks that's great. Yeah, as this can be diluted so much and I tend to make-up small batches of chemicals for the day / the next day, this is more cost effective for me - and as you say has no dyes, not something I was previously aware of.

RA-4 investment - Kodak or Tetenal

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