RA-4 frustrations

Hi all,

Lately I've been experimenting with RA-4, and there is a texture there that is appealing, however, it is pretty far from what I can achieve with scanning and printing from an inkjet.

First, the paper (FUJIFILM Fujicolor Crystal Archive Type II Paper Lustre) might be somewhat old, and the storing conditions could probably have been better. Which is why, I assume, I experience color shifts across different times and sizes when using the same filtering. I have not been able to get the colors right.

That is not my biggest frustration though - as that is the contrast of this paper. I have done both preflashing and tried to reduce the contrast chemically... Still though, a lot of dodging and burning is required (the negative itself is not particular contrasty). As far as I can understand all present day RA-4 paper is high contrast? Or is it possible to get less contrasty RA-4 paper somewhere? I would love to make some wet-prints, but as of now it appears to be more cumbersome than need be.

Cheers
Peter

pkr1979 said:

Which is why, I assume, I experience color shifts across different times and sizes when using the same filtering.

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If the different sizes of paper are from different batches that are of a different age and different storage conditions, then this might be part of the problem.

pkr1979 said:

Or is it possible to get less contrasty RA-4 paper somewhere?

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Nope.

Given a normal negative, I've never found contrast of modern RA4 paper to be a problem though. I think something else must be going on.

So I found two things were causing me color shifts when I first started:

1. RA4 paper is seemingly much more sensitive to light, including into the infrared. There were a few little red lights in my darkroom area and that was enough to cause me some weird cyan shifts. This also included the infrared from the little night vision camera I have in there.

2. Add a stop bath unless you've got an automatic processor. I could not reduce developer carryover enough with rinsing alone and it would always cause a yellow shift in the image, to the point where the borders looked more cream than white. A 30s run with a stop bath and some rinsing solved that.

pkr1979 said:

Hi all,

Lately I've been experimenting with RA-4, and there is a texture there that is appealing, however, it is pretty far from what I can achieve with scanning and printing from an inkjet.

First, the paper (FUJIFILM Fujicolor Crystal Archive Type II Paper Lustre) might be somewhat old, and the storing conditions could probably have been better. Which is why, I assume, I experience color shifts across different times and sizes when using the same filtering. I have not been able to get the colors right.

That is not my biggest frustration though - as that is the contrast of this paper. I have done both preflashing and tried to reduce the contrast chemically... Still though, a lot of dodging and burning is required (the negative itself is not particular contrasty). As far as I can understand all present day RA-4 paper is high contrast? Or is it possible to get less contrasty RA-4 paper somewhere? I would love to make some wet-prints, but as of now it appears to be more cumbersome than need be.

Cheers
Peter

Click to expand...

The paper you are using is famous for struggle to give deep blacks, I have only used it to print very contrasty negatives for that reason. If you need dodging, then something strange is going on.

What are you using for paper developing? Trays, processor, Jobo-like? What about the chemistry?

thinkbrown said:

So I found two things were causing me color shifts when I first started:

1. RA4 paper is seemingly much more sensitive to light, including into the infrared. There were a few little red lights in my darkroom area and that was enough to cause me some weird cyan shifts. This also included the infrared from the little night vision camera I have in there.

Click to expand...

Can I take it from the third sentence above that even by itself, the infrared light from a night vision camera affects RA4? Is this the exact same wavelength and luminosity as night vision goggles?

The outcome is that you now do everything in the total darkness and the problem has disappeared?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Thanks guys,

It is all done in total darkness. The paper has been stored the same and bought at the same time. I dont know though if the 8x10 paper and the 16x20 paper is from the same batch.

I have been doing this at room temp using a Jobo. The chemistry Ive been using is the Adox kit (and a stop bath). This kit had some precipitate but I think it was ok.

I'm leaning towards old and not stored right paper now.

pentaxuser said:

Can I take it from the third sentence above that even by itself, the infrared light from a night vision camera affects RA4? Is this the exact same wavelength and luminosity as night vision goggles?

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I don't know. I do know that the little camera I have produces some minor amount of red light in the visible spectrum so it's possible that it's a different wavelength of IR than night vision goggles.

I don't have any night vision goggles so I was initially doing tray development entirely in the dark, but I've since purchased a drum so I can do processing in daylight.

thinkbrown, thanks for the reply

pentaxuser

pkr1979 said:

Thanks guys,

It is all done in total darkness. The paper has been stored the same and bought at the same time. I dont know though if the 8x10 paper and the 16x20 paper is from the same batch.

I have been doing this at room temp using a Jobo. The chemistry Ive been using is the Adox kit (and a stop bath). This kit had some precipitate but I think it was ok.

I'm leaning towards old and not stored right paper now.

Click to expand...

I would try to reset the conditions to the optimum and work from there. Buy fresh paper and chemistry, try to follow as closely as possible the process instructions (temperature and time) and use one-shot chemistry with the minimum quantity needed by the tank per run.

pentaxuser said:

Can I take it from the third sentence above that even by itself, the infrared light from a night vision camera affects RA4?

Click to expand...

The sensitivity of Fuji RA4 papers extends to 725nm or so, with some trailing sensitivity perhaps even beyond that point. Apparently there's an overlap between that sensitivity and some broad-band emissions of some IR LEDs into the visible part of the spectrum, in which case cyan fogging will indeed take place. Given the relatively high speed of RA4 paper and the fact that IR goggles will come pretty close to the paper when handling it, I'm not surprised that this can result in some problems. However, the paper is not IR sensitive in a strict sense of the word.

halfaman said:

use one-shot chemistry with the minimum quantity needed by the tank per run.

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I agree on the other points and while one-shot chemistry in drums can indeed work, when it comes to consistency I would suggest to also test in a tray (if need be at room temperature) as this is in practice very consistent and removes problems associated with marginal conditions when processing in drums that can indeed result in inconsistencies between small strips vs. large prints. The large volume, thermal mass and therefore relative stability of a tray of developer guards largely against these effects. Room temperature development is furthermore associated with much longer development times (e.g. 90 seconds development has always worked for me with Fuji RA4 chemistry), which reduces the effects of minor differences in development time due to variations in handling.

At the same time, I do admit that personally I'm just not that enthusiastic about drums for RA4 processing, whereas my own experience with trays (esp. at room temperature) has always been very favorable, so I'm biased in that direction.

pkr1979 said:

The paper has been stored the same and bought at the same time. I dont know though if the 8x10 paper and the 16x20 paper is from the same batch.

Click to expand...

Do you get perfect consistency between prints and test strips with paper form the same pack?

pkr1979 said:

This kit had some precipitate

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That's odd. The concentrates themselves had a precipitate? In which bottles? What did it look like? RA4 concentrates should in general have no precipitates whatsoever.
Used RA4 developer esp. if it's re-used and replenished in a home setting usually throws down a black precipitate. If you're running a pro lab, then this is high alert & full alarm and it should never happen, but I find the developer generally works just fine (and consistently) for a long time that way. The Blix should be free of any precipitate whatsoever.

I use two minute steps in drums to maintain consistency, since the fill/drain time is less a factor than with short 1 min or so steps. An intermediate stop bath is important too. My opinion of trays for RA4 dev has been posted before relative to respiratory issues. With trays you have more risk of temp shift than in drums, unless you have a thermo-regulated water jacket around them. And I've never had good luck with "room temp" RA4 developers.

There are various potential culprits when it comes to print to print inconsistency, even within typical colorheads themselves. When properly used and internally preheated with an initial plain water step, even large drums work just fine using one-shot chemistry. But not all drums are created equal.

AFTER you do pin down all the key variables and at least get consistency, then you can move on to the question of contrast control per se. The two main ways
to do that are via film choice to begin with (some color negs films have more contrast than others, some considerably less). Choice of specific RA4 paper gives you only a little bit of flexibility in that respect, unlike in black and white printing. The real silver bullet is unsharp masking, either contrast decrease or contrast increase style, but that has its own learning curve and necessary equipment needs. Flashing never appealed to me, but it might be worth trying for yourself.

Old paper is just looking for trouble. Buy fresh paper and chem.

koraks said:

Do you get perfect consistency between prints and test strips with paper form the same pack?

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I do not know.

koraks said:

Do you get perfect consistency between prints and test strips with paper form the same pack?


That's odd. The concentrates themselves had a precipitate? In which bottles? What did it look like? RA4 concentrates should in general have no precipitates whatsoever.
Used RA4 developer esp. if it's re-used and replenished in a home setting usually throws down a black precipitate. If you're running a pro lab, then this is high alert & full alarm and it should never happen, but I find the developer generally works just fine (and consistently) for a long time that way. The Blix should be free of any precipitate whatsoever.

Click to expand...

The precipitate was only in the developer concentrate - brownish of color.

DREW WILEY said:

Old paper is just looking for trouble. Buy fresh paper and chem.

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Will do.

pkr1979 said:

The precipitate was only in the developer concentrate - brownish of color.

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Ok, that's not supposed to be there, but I don't think it explains the problems you've been having.

koraks said:

Ok, that's not supposed to be there, but I don't think it explains the problems you've been having.

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I am guessing the paper might be the cause. Its probably 6-7 years (if not more)... stored in so-so conditions. Why is the Adox paper high gloss? I like luster.

pkr1979 said:

Why is the Adox paper high gloss?

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That's what they bought. I assume they were aware that if you get to pick one finish, gloss is the one that's going to be the common denominator.

But high gloss - isnt that gloss with some extra gloss? That is a lot of gloss.

There's only gloss. There's no 'higher' gloss than just gloss in this product range.

They call it 'high gloss': https://www.fotoimpex.com/photopaper/colour-photopaper/

It's the same gloss as other Fuji glossy paper because that's what it is and Fuji did not make any extra super heavy turbo gloss version of the paper just for Adox.