Quick question about 120 film and the first frame.

rpavich · May 20, 2016

I loaded my wifes Yashica 635 with the "start" lined up with the red arrows and all and after developing I noticed that there was a piece of tape at the edge of the first frame. It was in about 1/4 of the negative.
Is it normal to have to "burn" the first frame to make sure that there is no tape on it or did I do something wrong?

railwayman3 · May 20, 2016

The tape attaches the start of the film to the backing paper, and definitely should not intrude on the first frame. On your strip of processed negs, you should get a small margin of blank unexposed film at beginning and end, if you line up the start marks correctly. (And if the film is correctly positioned on the backing paper during manufacture).

I've not had this problem with my Yashica 124G using well-known brands of film.....what film were you using ?

rpavich · May 20, 2016

railwayman3 said:
The tape attaches the start of the film to the backing paper, and definitely should not intrude on the first frame. On your strip of processed negs, you should get a small margin of blank unexposed film at beginning and end, if you line up the start marks correctly. (And if the film is correctly positioned on the backing paper during manufacture).

I've not had this problem with my Yashica 124G using well-known brands of film.....what film were you using ?

I used Arista EDU ultra 100.
It doesn't have arrows on the paper, just the word "start" and I lined it up with the red arrows on the camera. It's very possible I didn't do something correctly, but I'm not sure what.
But thanks for confirming that this isn't normal. I'll recheck my steps.

Terrence Brennan · May 20, 2016

Before you shoot your next roll, have a look at the roll you just shot. Are the rest of the frames evenly spaced? How much extra film is there at the "tail" of the roll; that is, at the end, after the last exposure? If the spacing is good, with no overlaps, with even rebate areas between the frames, then you aren't suffering any film slippage. If you are, then the transport mechanism may have to be serviced.

I was recently gifted a very nice Mamiya C33 camera, which is similar in concept to the camera you have. When I shot my first test roll, I found that there wasn't enough rebate area at the "head" (beginning) of the film, and too much at the tail. I measured both of the rebate areas, and compared them. The result is that, with my favorite film (HP5+), I advance the arrow on the backing paper about 3/16" or 5mm, past the index mark on my camera. So far, so good.

I have yet to check with a roll of FP4+, but as both are Ilford products, I am confident that it will "line up" in the same manner as HP5+. If you test with one manufacturer's film, another manufacturer's film may not line up exactly the same; I have had that experience in the past when loading my Rolleicord.

rpavich · May 20, 2016

Terrence Brennan said:
Before you shoot your next roll, have a look at the roll you just shot. Are the rest of the frames evenly spaced? How much extra film is there at the "tail" of the roll; that is, at the end, after the last exposure? If the spacing is good, with no overlaps, with even rebate areas between the frames, then you aren't suffering any film slippage. If you are, then the transport mechanism may have to be serviced.

I was recently gifted a very nice Mamiya C33 camera, which is similar in concept to the camera you have. When I shot my first test roll, I found that there wasn't enough rebate area at the "head" (beginning) of the film, and too much at the tail. I measured both of the rebate areas, and compared them. The result is that, with my favorite film (HP5+), I advance the arrow on the backing paper about 3/16" or 5mm, past the index mark on my camera. So far, so good.

I have yet to check with a roll of FP4+, but as both are Ilford products, I am confident that it will "line up" in the same manner as HP5+. If you test with one manufacturer's film, another manufacturer's film may not line up exactly the same; I have had that experience in the past when loading my Rolleicord.

Ahh...Interesting.
I cut off about 2 frames worth of blank (unexposed) negative (not sure now where that came from), and the spacing is pretty even except for between the first, and second frame...it's narrower between 1 and 2 and about double wide between 2 and 3. I'll have to keep a closer eye on it this time around.

Ian Grant · May 20, 2016

The word start isn't what you should be using it means start winding to the arrow. At least on the Foma films I've used.

Ian

rpavich · May 20, 2016

Ian Grant said:
The word start isn't what you should be using it means start winding to the arrow. At least on the Foma films I've used.

Ian

Well, I guess that explains it....face palm inserted here.

Thanks for solving this mystery for me

BrianShaw · May 20, 2016

I recently shot 2 rolls of that film. I seem to recall arrows. But I only got 11 frames, the last one on the paper tail. I'm not convinced that the markings are correct...

Kodak film shot following that yielded normal frame count and negs.

Dan Daniel · May 20, 2016

This may be obvious to others, but when I was first using a Yashica-D- which is the same basic camera as a 635 but without the 35mm option- I made a mistake in how I used the wind mechanism. I would push in the button in the center of the wind knob and hold it down while I started winding. This led to variation in my frame spacing. I finally learned that all I need to do was push the button in, release, and THEN start winding.

If you still have the paper backing from your roll, you can wind it on a spool and run it through just a paper. This will allow you to test the first frame position. Without film, it won't register frames properly throughout the full roll, but you could still just open the back after it stops for frame 1 to see what is going on, go to frame 2 to see spacing, etc. Each time you open the back the counter will reset, of course.

Ian Grant · May 20, 2016

BrianShaw said:
I recently shot 2 rolls of that film. I seem to recall arrows. But I only got 11 frames, the last one on the paper tail. I'm not convinced that the markings are correct...

I've shot well over 100 rolls of Fomapan 100 & 200 with my Yashicamat 124 and no problems with the markings.

Ian

BrianShaw · May 20, 2016

Ian Grant said:
I've shot well over 100 rolls of Fomapan 100 & 200 with my Yashicamat 124 and no problems with the markings.

Ian

You and many other too. I'm hoping and expecting that your experience is the norm!

I can't fully explain what happened to me in this, my first, experience with that film. But it was 100% consistent in a very limited sampling (n=2).

I know its not my Hasselblad back, and I know I know how to load film correctly, and I've never had a problem with the processing lab goofing up. As of now it is an unexplained phenomenon. I haven't had the time to fully investigate what happened, though.

rpavich · May 20, 2016

Dan Daniel said:
This may be obvious to others, but when I was first using a Yashica-D- which is the same basic camera as a 635 but without the 35mm option- I made a mistake in how I used the wind mechanism. I would push in the button in the center of the wind knob and hold it down while I started winding. This led to variation in my frame spacing. I finally learned that all I need to do was push the button in, release, and THEN start winding.

If you still have the paper backing from your roll, you can wind it on a spool and run it through just a paper. This will allow you to test the first frame position. Without film, it won't register frames properly throughout the full roll, but you could still just open the back after it stops for frame 1 to see what is going on, go to frame 2 to see spacing, etc. Each time you open the back the counter will reset, of course.

Ahh...I wasn't consistent in this regard either! Thanks for the heads up.

R.Gould · May 20, 2016

BrianShaw said:
I recently shot 2 rolls of that film. I seem to recall arrows. But I only got 11 frames, the last one on the paper tail. I'm not convinced that the markings are correct...

Kodak film shot following that yielded normal frame count and negs.

I have shoot a few hundred rolls of Fomapan 400, always 12 exposures and plenty of room at the end of the roll alwas get 12 or 16 frames depending on format with plenty of room at the end of the film

Rick A · May 20, 2016

OP--rewind the backing paper from your first roll, check to see if there are arrows. If yes, then you have the actual answer to your problem, and need to adjust accordingly on the next roll.

BrianShaw · May 20, 2016

BrianShaw said:
You and many other too. I'm hoping and expecting that your experience is the norm!

I can't fully explain what happened to me in this, my first, experience with that film. But it was 100% consistent in a very limited sampling (n=2).

I know its not my Hasselblad back, and I know I know how to load film correctly, and I've never had a problem with the processing lab goofing up. As of now it is an unexplained phenomenon. I haven't had the time to fully investigate what happened, though.

Looking at the negs, finally. The first image frame is at the edge marking "2". Very odd; I've never experienced that before. As mentioned, a couple of rolls of other film in the same back worked exactly as expected.

Quick question about 120 film and the first frame.

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