Quick lith question

Jarvman · Oct 10, 2008

Does the grade filtration of the light source have any effect on the contrast of a lith print or is it purely down to the length of exposure given. Just wondering, I'm trying to print some very contrasty holga infrared negs and while the foreground is just right, there's no way of getting that sky to budge. This is exposing for 360 secs at f/5.6!

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 10, 2008

I think you've entered the realm of reciprocity failure of the paper.

In my experience, contrast is related to exposure when it comes to lith. You don't need your filters, but they can certainly be included if you want to have more variables.
Try flashing the paper prior to exposing it. With lith, that is a very powerful way to control contrast and tame blocked up highlights.
Also, consider a more powerful light source. I'm going to purchase 250W bulbs for my Omega condenser head pretty soon to aid this problem (I use notoriously slow lith papers such as Emaks).

Basically:
- No filters (shortens exposure)
- Flash paper
- Stronger light

- Thomas

Jarvman · Oct 10, 2008

I've always printed with grade 5 when doing lith. Don't ask me why, just because when I began lith printing it was to get the most contrast out of a few flat negs. The reason I turned to using it in the first place really. I'll try as you say to print without using a filter in future. Wasn't sure whether it was a varible at all which is why I ask the question. You're right, or course it would be in terms of exposure. I haven't used flashing at all really, any tips?

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 10, 2008

I am not saying it's wrong to use filters. But it does introduce one more variable.

Be prepared for shorter exposures without the filter. Especially grade 5 filters are known to slow down exposure considerably.

With flashing - it's learn as you go. The other day I did a print from negs shot at one of my best friends' wedding. Delta 3200 medium format film that got a little hot in the developer. I was trying to bring out detail in her dress (there in the neg), so I decided to give a 10% preflash. I did this with my enlarger before I put the negative in. Total exposure time was 90+10 seconds at f/4 on Fotokemika Emaks Grade 4 paper at 9x12" enlargement.
The print came out great with beautiful glowing highlights in the dress, tones I was unable to reproduce prior to flashing.

Just play around with it. It really works.

- Thomas

mrtoml · Oct 10, 2008

I agree with Thomas. No filters are required. Just changing the exposure has a significant impact on contrast and the filters just increase the exposure times. Less exposure = more contrast. I often do a test print at a 'normal' (for lith) exposure and then increase of decrease the exposure to change the contrast as required. I found that I needed to experiment with one negative to find the sort of times I needed and the effects of increasing and decreasing the times with a particular paper. I also have an analyser pro meter so I can judge now what is required pretty well before I start.

Jarvman · Oct 10, 2008

Seeing as I can only work one enlarger at a time, is it best that I post flash the paper after the exposure. That way the paper is going to stay in the same place? Do you raise the head all the way up before doing it and sensitise the whole sheet of paper? Also, would you always use something to diffuse the light. I'm feeling down about my printing skills lately and am starting to regret buying a splitgrade enlarger.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 10, 2008

I'm not sure about post flashing. I pre-flash. Don't know if it makes a difference. I'm not terribly concerned with getting the paper in exactly the same position after the flashing, but that's just me.
I'm going to purchase one of these: http://www.rhdesigns.co.uk/darkroom/html/paperflasher.html
Then I don't have to worry about it so much anymore.
By diffusing the light - do you mean for the pre-flash? I haven't seen a need for it. The light from your enlarger should be uniform anyway. Another way of doing it would be to use a light bulb. I've sometimes used just the ceiling light and turned it on with the paper still in the easel, just for a short moment. A split second is usually enough for lith printing to breathe life into the highlights. Not ideal, but it's fun! And when you're having fun is when the best prints emerge.

Don't feel down because you have a bit of a slump. It'll come back to you. Lith printing can be amazingly frustrating, but when it works - boy does it reward!

- Thomas

Andrew Moxom · Oct 10, 2008

Jarvman, consider the RH DEsigns paper flasher for this task. I am going to order one as I too have a problem using more than one enlarger. It's supposed to work really well, and much better than a flashlight or light bulb that I have used before.

Jarvman · Oct 10, 2008

Sounds a good idea. Thought about that gizmo as soon as Andrew mentioned flashing. It's gotta be worth it. Went back to printing undemanding negs tonight but couldn't even get those right, too much old brown = 20 mins wasted in the dark, pepper fogging and the dev failing! gah, everything that could go wrong has tonight. Boooo!

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 10, 2008

Sorry, friend. Try again. Mix up fresh chemistry. I use about 500ml old brown to 3,000ml developer. Then the developer is 100ml A + 100ml B + 2,800ml Water. I print at about 75-80*F.
- Thomas

Guillaume Zuili · Oct 11, 2008

With graded paper I always use 4, with multigrade never used any filter and as Thomas said, 5 is really slow.
I never pre flash. I always expose lens wide open and 2 minutes is quite my regular time. So 360 isn't that crazy...
You can expose way more and dodge the dark areas to retain them from popping too quickly.
Which paper do you use by the way ? Which dev and what dilution ?
G.

mrtoml · Oct 11, 2008

Regarding flashing it's usually preflash. This pre-sensitises the paper to accept the highlights better. Post flashing is just like adding fog.

I preflash and expose in the same enlarger. I put the neg carrier with neg in the enlarger slot, but not pushed in, then preflash and then gently push the negative carrier all the way in (having prefocussed of course). It usually works. I use my analyser to determine the time.

blaze-on · Oct 11, 2008

I've had a few prints where I exposed with grade 0 (100% yellow) for a minute (or 1/3 total time) out of the whole exposure...It will definitely put some color in flat areas.

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 11, 2008

Matt, wouldn't that be like flashing, almost, since you're giving a very even exposure? I too find that when pre-flashing the paper I get a color shift.
- Thomas

Jarvman · Oct 11, 2008

Mark, you mentioned that the reason the prints go pink is because of increasing bromide levels in the developer. Instead of adding as much old brown, what about if I bought some bromide and substituted some of the old brown with it? They've got 100g of potassium bromide over at retro photographic. Maybe if I add this in different amounts instead of as much old brown I could get closer to the colours I want quicker without weakening the developer so much. Possibilty or not?

mrtoml · Oct 11, 2008

I think this would probably work to some extent. This is what the Moersch SE5 does. It has an additive 'D' that is basically bromide solution. You add as much as required to get the effect you want - it delays the lith effect and requires more exposure. I find that if you keep the D down you get much more 'black and white' prints with more contrast. See:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Which only has a small amount of bromide. Adding more bromide with this paper (Kentona) gives me browner tones which need selenium toning to get good blacks. The higher ratio of A to B here gives higher contrast and enhances grain (not sure if this works with LD20).

I think LD20 already has a fair amount of bromide added to it so you probably need to be conservative with the extra you add. The bromide levels also increase during a session naturally as they are in the paper emulsion and get passed into the developer with each print. That is why the lith effect gets enhanced with well used developer as I understand it (along with the fact that the active developing agents get more diluted as they are used up. More dilute developer produces stronger colours). The danger is that if you add too much bromide it inhibits the process altogether and nothing happens or you get ridiculously long developing times.

The main problem is - with any lith developer - that there are lots of variables and it depends on a lot of factors (dilution and ratio of A/B, paper, temperature, exposure, negative contrast etc.). You have to try and adjust one variable at a time to get a feel for what effects you can get. It requires a lot of experimentation and note keeping.

Solarize · Oct 11, 2008

mrtoml said:
I think this would probably work to some extent. This is what the Moersch SE5 does. It has an additive 'D' that is basically bromide solution. You add as much as required to get the effect you want - it delays the lith effect and requires more exposure.

From limited experience, I would agree. I've been printing with LD20 and Fomatone MG this evening, and on a whim added some Pottasium Bromide to the mix (one flat 5ml medicine spoon to 2500ml developer).
I had been getting that typical lith textured look which wasn't suiting the subject, and through luck or otherwise, the Bromide seemed to tame it.

A word of warning though, and again without the experience to substantiate the observation properly - the activity of the developer dropped off very quickly and soon became too contrasty after the addition of bromide - like four or five full 8X10's and it was done.... annoying and expensive!

Still, the look suited what I was after - shall try and post some examples tommorow.

And don't worry about long exposure times. I was exceeding seven or eight minutes at F.4, and still struggling to introduce any semblance of tonality into the highlights.

Don't be put off by the bad days - I've just noticed that the borders on my 15 or so liths are slightly skew; 'arghhhhh!'

Ciaran

Click to expand...

blaze-on · Oct 11, 2008

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Matt, wouldn't that be like flashing, almost, since you're giving a very even exposure? I too find that when pre-flashing the paper I get a color shift.
- Thomas

Yes, if you expose the whole image area..Sometimes I "burn" an area with the Grade-0 and it seems to be different in color shift than with a flash, unless the flash is with a grade 0

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 11, 2008

Ciaran,

You are most likely going into reciprocity failure between time and exposure of the paper. At this point (7 minutes), even if you left the light on for 20 minutes, it would probably not make much difference in the print.
Pre-flashing definitely helps in obtaining highlight density and color. And it cuts down your exposure times to reasonable levels.

Interesting about the bromide. I wonder when Wolfgang is going to see this thread, and now the 'Quick Lith Question' thread title is also mis-representing the content...

- Thomas

Solarize said:
mrtoml said:

I think this would probably work to some extent. This is what the Moersch SE5 does. It has an additive 'D' that is basically bromide solution. You add as much as required to get the effect you want - it delays the lith effect and requires more exposure.

From limited experience, I would agree. I've been printing with LD20 and Fomatone MG this evening, and on a whim added some Pottasium Bromide to the mix (one flat 5ml medicine spoon to 2500ml developer).
I had been getting that typical lith textured look which wasn't suiting the subject, and through luck or otherwise, the Bromide seemed to tame it.

A word of warning though, and again without the experience to substantiate the observation properly - the activity of the developer dropped off very quickly and soon became too contrasty after the addition of bromide - like four or five full 8X10's and it was done.... annoying and expensive!

Still, the look suited what I was after - shall try and post some examples tommorow.

And don't worry about long exposure times. I was exceeding seven or eight minutes at F.4, and still struggling to introduce any semblance of tonality into the highlights.

Don't be put off by the bad days - I've just noticed that the borders on my 15 or so liths are slightly skew; 'arghhhhh!'

Ciaran

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jarvman · Oct 11, 2008

Haha agreed, there's never a quick question round these parts! I've got 4 sheets left and am going to try your dilution on them tomorrow when I sober up Thomas. I think the answer is a larger volume of dev and longer printing sessions, plotting which colours I'd like for each print as it matures. Printing on grade 0 is cutting down the exposure times massively though which was my real question so thanks. It'll mean a lot less time between each print. Should've known that the filration would've increased the exposure time, duh. Wouldn't hurt to buy a bag of magical bromide dust. According to Tim's lith bible they used to provide this with LD20. Also need to take flashing into account for those blocked highlights. Cheers for the responses.

Mark Fisher · Oct 11, 2008

"Printing on grade 0 is cutting down the exposure times massively though which was my real question so thanks."

There is really no need to print at grade zero....print with no filtration and that should be fine.....and even faster!

Jarvman · Oct 11, 2008

With the splitgrade sytem which is what I have grade zero is the closest I can get to no filtration. Like I said, I sometimes regret spending the money on it. Used to appreciate it but aren't really learning anything, that's where APUG comes in <3 I'm sure its a case of gaining knowledge through printing with it though.

mrtoml · Oct 12, 2008

Can you not turn off the filtration in your enlarger? Then you could just expose like most other people. Grade 2 should also be just as fast as grade 0 or grade 3 I believe. I have a lever on my enlarger that shifts the filters out of the way, but I can dial in 0 filtration on magenta and yellow also.

Having some bromide on your shelf is not a bad idea for lots of other reasons besides lith so it might be worth getting some.

Jarvman · Oct 12, 2008

I'm getting wound up now. Just tried a 100ml A + 100ml B + 2800 water and 500ml old brown and it bombed. It still hasn't gone totally black with the white light on! By my first notes which said 25+25 per liter with 500ml old brown it should've been more than enough. The chemicals are fine. Do... not ... understand!

mrtoml · Oct 12, 2008

This is really strange. The only explanations I can offer are:

1. Not enough exposure
2. something strange about the old brown
3. the lith chemistry is expired or contaminated in some way

You should be getting results with this combination especially with Fomatone within a few minutes.

Quick lith question

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