Questions Regarding Expired Film and Exposures

VaryaV · Dec 23, 2013

I just found a bag of film stored in a drawer in my d/r I had forgotten about, prior to me getting my refrigerator out there. I have only shot an expired roll once (that hadn't been properly stored) by accident and I used the fogging to my advantage and it turned out pretty cool. I know a lot of you have experience using old film (that may not have been properly stored.)
My questions are:

1. What would I have to rate these at for them to be usable?
2. Would Rodi stand development help compensate for loss, 1 or 2 hour?

The films are:
Macophot UP 25 - exp 2008
PanF - exp 2006
FomaPan 100 - the boxes do not have an exp date
FP4+- exp unknown
D100 - exp 2006
D3200 - exp 2002
TMX 620 - exp 2006

I suspect the rating for the 25 would drop down to like 6 or something? Probably not worth the effort, eh? but I have regenerated my love for D100 so that I would hope could be salvaged somehow and the PanF too. There's like 30 rolls of film all-in-all that I would like to use if possible. Thanks.

MartinP · Dec 23, 2013

Given its original speed and the age of the film now, from personal experience I don't think that the D3200 will be very successful.

The other films might, or might not, be usable perhaps with a little extra fog - it depends on how warm they have been, on any vapours in the area (paints, wood treatments etc.) or e.m. radiation that may have affected them, on their packaging etc. etc. Generally, the higher speed films are more sensitive to any risks and will build fog more quickly than slower films.

There is no simple and infallible answer unfortunately.

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2013

hey varya

i never have used rodinal but have shot expired versions of most of those films
i usually over expose 1-2 stops
and develop them in something like ansco 130
for normal development (1:7 72degreesF 8mins or so)
but these days i do the same development split between
ansco 130(same dilution ) 4.5 mins and a strong brew of caffenol that i
put pre used pre dilute ansco 130 into.
the ansco is agitated for the first ful min, then 10/60 sec
and continuously in the caffenol 4 mins ...

if you try this ... a few things ...
my ansco stock is about 13 months old
and i use home roasted sumatra robusta coffee for my coffee stock
and free pour the other ingredients ( 1 big scoop of washing soda and a smaller scoop of vit c )
i also add about 1-2 oz of stock ansco 130 into the coffee.
oh, my caffenol is seasoned with abut 1/3 used caffenol, and has had about 20 rolls and sheers through it

it works with cheap old instant coffee too ...

good luck!

john

ps. from what i remember, these were taken with 10+ year old tmz (3200)
bedside drawer stored film processes in the coffee stuff 30-35 mins stand developed

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

nworth · Dec 23, 2013

The D3200 may have real problems. The others are not really that far out of date, and are the kind of material that ages well. If they have not been subjected to temperature or humidity extremes, they are probably OK. You might give them half a stop more exposure. They may not really need it, but it is unlikely to do any harm, and it will help if the films have lost any speed. Both temperature and humidity can be real killers, however. If they have been subjected to long periods over 32C and (or) extended periods in high humidity, they have have deteriorated seriously.

VaryaV · Dec 23, 2013

Thanks for the great tips, everyone. I had heard that fast films can cause problems when not properly stored. I keep my d/r around 72-74 in the summer but I am in Florida. The stuff was stored in a corner drawer that's hard to get too. I assume it got much warmer in there. The humidity is crazy. I had been running an old de-humidifier out there after summer downpours and printing sessions but the fan has bit the dust, I haven't found a new one that even comes close to that old thing. So yes the heat/humidity will be suspect. I have since bought a little refrigerator to store my film and papers in. But based on every one's feed back it looks like some of the stuff is very doable. I'll just forgo the 25. The PanF I have to try. Just cuz I love the stuff so much.

John, much appreciated as always. As soon as I get my MSA stuff done I am going to give the caffenol a shot. I love what you are doing and using this old film will be well worth it. I love experimenting with stuff.

Xmas · Dec 23, 2013

dev the Tmax 3200 as a 400 ISO film there is a Kodak data sheet for time and temp.

Id treat the others normally ie no uprating cut dev time by 15%.

Fog increases with the time in developer anyway but storing (cooking) the film in your local climate won't have helped.

You should be able to print/scan through fog but Id use the film for repeatable shots until you are confident.

pentaxuser · Dec 23, 2013

Xmas said:
Id treat the others normally ie no uprating cut dev time by 15%.

Fog increases with the time in developer anyway but storing (cooking) the film in your local climate won't have helped.

I had always thought that the conventional wisdom was to increase dev time or if you can be sure the film hasn't lost speed to at least dev as per the time for in-date film.

You are suggesting a cut of 15% - you may be right, I have no idea - but can you say why a cut will help with out of date film?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Xmas · Dec 23, 2013

pentaxuser said:
Xmas said:

Id treat the others normally ie no uprating cut dev time by 15%.

Fog increases with the time in developer anyway but storing (cooking) the film in your local climate won't have helped.

Click to expand...

I had always thought that the conventional wisdom was to increase dev time or if you can be sure the film hasn't lost speed to at least dev as per the time for in-date film.

You are suggesting a cut of 15% - you may be right, I have no idea - but can you say why a cut will help with out of date film?

Thanks

pentaxuser

reducing time in dev reduces the fog in any film
increasing time in dev increases the fog in any film
look at detailed film datasheets
cooked film will have a higher natural fog level than normal film, the OP lives in Florida
out of date film won't have a higher level necessarily most of my film is pre 2005 not been fridged but no -detectable fog
increasing dev time of cooked film is risky
increasing the exposure raises the shadows a bit more above the fog or any detectable fog the ISO standard uses this metric
you could add restrainer but that is more complicated unless you know the film, the developer, and the restrainer
you could try a post Borax bath but again that needs knowledge eg there is the possibility of non uniform fog
Id try development for minimum time and sort out contrast problems printing later
people who uprate film have more difficult printing problems even when not cooked
the rule is dont underexposure and overdevelop?

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2013

VaryaV said:
Thanks for the great tips, everyone. I had heard that fast films can cause problems when not properly stored. I keep my d/r around 72-74 in the summer but I am in Florida. The stuff was stored in a corner drawer that's hard to get too. I assume it got much warmer in there. The humidity is crazy. I had been running an old de-humidifier out there after summer downpours and printing sessions but the fan has bit the dust, I haven't found a new one that even comes close to that old thing. So yes the heat/humidity will be suspect. I have since bought a little refrigerator to store my film and papers in. But based on every one's feed back it looks like some of the stuff is very doable. I'll just forgo the 25. The PanF I have to try. Just cuz I love the stuff so much.

John, much appreciated as always. As soon as I get my MSA stuff done I am going to give the caffenol a shot. I love what you are doing and using this old film will be well worth it. I love experimenting with stuff.

thanks varya!

they used to say 1fstop/decade
print dev like dektoll and ansco 130 will reduce fog ..its ont of the reasons
rockland colliod has it as part of their tintype kit ...so if you get fog in other stuff try a little dektol
1:7 for about 7 mins ...

psst YMMV
john

MartinP · Dec 23, 2013

Oh, and not forgetting that the age-related fog is independent of exposure (more or less) so you can see what happens to any particular roll, or group of rolls, with a short unexposed clip-test of whichever emulsion you want to use next.

If it comes out of standard development with a fog noticeably added to the usual film-base, then under-rate the film (ie. give more exposure) and reduce development slightly (to reduce the fog, relative to the silver image). This will likely reduce contrast somewhat, so perhaps bear that in mind with the subject matter.

VaryaV · Dec 25, 2013

Thanks so much to everyone for the information. I'll start shooting the PanF and D100 tomorrow and start playing around with the results. Will let you know what I come up with based on your suggestions. Today I scan for the MSA and cook the Christmas goose.

markbarendt · Dec 25, 2013

I've yet to have any age failure with slower films, regardless of their history, so personally I'd treat the slow films normally for both exposure and development.

For the fast films I'd use their real ISO rating 800-1000ish or 1 stop extra so 400-500ish. Probably develop 1 roll per instructions for 1600 and adjust from there.

BrianShaw · Dec 25, 2013

markbarendt said:
I've yet to have any age failure with slower films, regardless of their history, so personally I'd treat the slow films normally for both exposure and development.

Same here. But I have experienced storage-related failure, but the storage conditions were quite extreme. I don't do fast film much and insist that any fast film I use is fresh.

VaryaV · Dec 25, 2013

Thanks Mark and Brian - I am going to run through the PanF tomorrow if I get full sun. There are enough rolls for me to run several exp tests. This will be a fun little project and I'm dying to play with the SpotmaticF too. I don't have a whole lot experience with PanF maybe 10 rolls and I didn't nail the exposure down at the time and it was way too contrasty for my tastes. But I've seen some great stuff with it and I want to try it again, I just can't believe I left all this stuff out without proper storage.

VaryaV · Dec 26, 2013

Expired PanF

I just shot 2 rolls of exp PanF. Going to dev in Rodi per unblinkingeyes recommendation. Seems many of them like PMK results. Wish I had some to test.

1- PanF(50) -35mm, Rodi, 1:50, 8.5m, 20c, agit. 1st 30s, 10s/30s
2- PanF(34) - 120, Rodi, 1:50, 7m, 20c, agit. 1st 30s, 10s/30s

Ed Buffaloe recommends 11.5, agit 10s and 4inv/60s but his times are for a diffusion enlarger and I have a condenser.

Will post results as soon as I am able. Thanks again, for all your tips. This is a hard film to harness for sure.

If any of you have used PMK let me know your thoughts. I've used PyrocatHD and love it. But I don't know how they differ.

kreeger · Dec 26, 2013

Faster Films - I have about 120 rolls of Neopan 400 120 that I bought and froze as it was going end of availability. It is holding up well... thats the fastest film ISO type that I use. No perceptible increase on 2007 expiration date so far.

Slow films - My experience with expired films is similar to others. Slow films are not as likely to fog as others as they don't pick up the gamma rays like 400 ISO and up. In fact, I'm down to the last 4 rolls I have of Verichrome Pan I bought new in the mid 90s that has been frozen since year before it went out of date 1994, but it's base+fog increased a bit to like .18 from .08 compared to when it was new. I use HC-110 Dilution H for this film.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

My second favorite developer these days for higher speed films has been TMAX RS, using it over and over and replenishing it. I am now 1.5 years running on the same stuff and it's doing a great job on 120 size Kodak Tri-X, TMX and Arista Premium 400 in 35 format.

VaryaV · Dec 26, 2013

Film is drying. I would like to mention again that these films were 'improperly' stored in a bag in a drawer in my d/r. I live in Florida. Though I do 'try' to keep the temp around 64-78 in the summer, those drawers can get rather warm. I have since gotten a refrigerator out there, but these I had forgotten about for several years.

Results don't look too good but I won't know for sure until I contact print.

First roll 120 PanF (32) is the better of two. Negs are low contrast but today is pretty low light. There is no visible Ilford markings and I can barely detect the numbers. I assume these were underexposed still? f4-1/15th and I bracketed 3 stops.

Second roll PanF (50) images are barely detectable/faint. I have never encountered negs this thin. f3.5/f8/f11 1/15th - 1/30th f8/f5.6 some f11

I don't know if it will be even worth it to shoot anymore of the bagged film. If the Slow film didn't hold up due to poor storage, I can't image the D100 to. Bummer, but it's all an invaluable learning process.

Xmas · Dec 26, 2013

Is the rebate clear film like normal or veiled like mist?

Noel

VaryaV · Dec 26, 2013

Hi Noel - it's clear. The 35mm PanF (50) is clear but the numbers are black on that roll, images barely seen. May or may not be printable.

The 120 PanF (32) is clear in the rebate film but actually I think that roll came out pretty good. They should be very printable.

I'll scan as soon as they're dry.

Xmas · Dec 26, 2013

if the base is clear it is probably ok how did you do meter and what dev?

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/product.asp?n=5#

download the PDF

VaryaV · Dec 26, 2013

I got my dev times from unblinkingeye.

This is the roll in question:
1- PanF(50) -35mm, Rodi, 1:50, 8.5m, 20c, agit. 1st 30s, 10s/30s
Used an ambient meter bracketed 1/15th - f3.5/f8/f11 - 1/30th f5.6/f8 some f11

I think this roll came out pretty good:
2- PanF(34) - 120, Rodi, 1:50, 7m, 20c, agit. 1st 30s, 10s/30s
f4/f5.6 - 1/15th

Xmas · Dec 26, 2013

hi

The Ilford data sheet provides times for Rodinal too but your 50 should have been ok.

If the base is clear the film is ok.

When I use PanF I need to zone meter and use Microphen and a post bath of Borax it is not very forgiving. I have bulk loader full of it.

It needs veiled cloud as harsh sun mission impossible.

VaryaV · Dec 26, 2013

Well I just scanned them in and they're not even worth posting. Ack! Completely flat with no contrast def at all. Worst stuff I ever ran through a camera. Plus the sky was completely overcast too which is what I wanted but had it been full sun, my film 'might' have showed a little sign of life.! Lesson learned. Thanks for the fact sheet. I'll add it to my notes.

Xmas · Dec 26, 2013

Your Delta 100 should be ok.
Ilfords site is useful.
Our days are 40F max and fog the other side of the lens from the film.

Questions Regarding Expired Film and Exposures

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency