Questions regarding analogue photography

Hi,
I am new to analogue photography and there are some things I don't understand about the data of analogue filmnegatives, so I would be really thankful if someone could take the time to explain it to me.

The first thing is, what does the number 135-36 on the packaging of those films mean?

Secondly, in datasheets for Koda color negatives, there are some filters required for specific light, like for Kodak Portra 800 it is said that daylight requires a Filter of 40R. Does anyone know where to get this filters? I can't find them anywhere.

The third question is how to use the density curves of blue, red and green of the datasheet to calculate the best exposure.and lightning. I do not understand the mathematics yet, neither do I understand the Log H Ref value. Does anyone know how to use this values correctly?

It also would be very nice and helpful if someone could expalin how to understand the MTF curve. I read something about it, but it's still not really clear to me.

I need to know that deep because I have a project to do revolving around shooting analogue.

Thanks a lot in advance and best regards

hi jud23

starting in the beginning Kodak flooded the market with consumer cameras. they were box and folding cameras of all shapes and sizes and they took film of all shapes and sizes. in order to make sure people used THEIR film they had many many different roll films and each had its own number, like 120, or 828.
here's a chart that might be useful
https://wallphotography.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/summary-of-kodak-roll-film-sizes/
the -36 is 36 exposures ( 24 exposure would be 135-24 ).
Im sorry to admit this to you but I never read the data sheets, and I don't pay much attention to filters or log values. I'm not a tech-person, I just take photographs

40R is a Red filter. I am not sure if it is deep red or light red or somewhere in between, but if you go onto google type in wratten color filter. it might be able to tell you.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...11&_nkw=kodak+wratten+gelatin+filter&_sacat=0
filters are on eBay often for very little money. you need to know your lens's front diameter so you get the right one (they screw on) unless you use flexible "gels" that you attach infront on some sort of filter holder or with tape..

good luck !

have fun
John

If you have a project around shooting film, and not some abstract stuff around it, you won't really need any of that except perhaps the first question, to get the right film!
I believe the daylight filter for Portra 800 isn't absolutely necessary if your film will be scanned - digital corrections can take care of the color cast. But I'm sure experts will chime in on this.
These curves don't need to be considered for exposure and lighting, certainly not if you're working at a level where basic stuff is still unclear. This is highly advanced information that most users will never look at. Same goes for MTF. If you really need to know, do your research and come back with specific questions. For example you can include a link to an article you've read and then point out how for you understand it and which part you need help with. This way someone who helps you won't need to explain things you maybe already know, and it shows you're willing to put some work in yourself.
What is your project specifically?

Hello and welcome.

Don't over think it. Load up the film in your camera, set the ISO speed, take pictures and have fun!

Feel free to ask questions. There are no stupid questions except the ones that are not asked.

Sirius Glass said:

Feel free to ask questions. There are no stupid questions except the ones that are not asked.

Click to expand...

Jud23 said:

Hi,

I need to know that deep because I have a project to do revolving around shooting analogue.

Click to expand...

It seems to me that you need to know a lot of analogue photographic scientific theory for your project. Is this the main objective or are you interested in beginning analogue photography as a user of film

If this was clearer then we can give appropriate answers. What you need as answers for a project will be different from the kind answers that a "taker of good pictures and home processor of film " needs to know. Is this a project for a college or university course? The level at which you need to be able to write about such scientific theory will help us give the right level of answers

Thanks

pentaxuser

Jud23 said:

Hi,
I am new to analogue photography and there are some things I don't understand about the data of analogue filmnegatives, so I would be really thankful if someone could take the time to explain it to me.

The first thing is, what does the number 135-36 on the packaging of those films mean?

Secondly, in datasheets for Koda color negatives, there are some filters required for specific light, like for Kodak Portra 800 it is said that daylight requires a Filter of 40R. Does anyone know where to get this filters? I can't find them anywhere.

The third question is how to use the density curves of blue, red and green of the datasheet to calculate the best exposure.and lightning. I do not understand the mathematics yet, neither do I understand the Log H Ref value. Does anyone know how to use this values correctly?

It also would be very nice and helpful if someone could expalin how to understand the MTF curve. I read something about it, but it's still not really clear to me.

I need to know that deep because I have a project to do revolving around shooting analogue.

Thanks a lot in advance and best regards

Click to expand...

Ihope the attached helps with understanding MTFcurves

Jud23 said:

Hi,
Secondly, in datasheets for Koda color negatives, there are some filters required for specific light, like for Kodak Portra 800 it is said that daylight requires a Filter of 40R. Does anyone know where to get this filters? I can't find them anywhere.

The third question is how to use the density curves of blue, red and green of the datasheet to calculate the best exposure.and lightning. I do not understand the mathematics yet, neither do I understand the Log H Ref value. Does anyone know how to use this values correctly?

Click to expand...

Don't worry about any of this at this point. If you already understand exposure, juste make sure you have a good, basic meter. If exposure is not clear for you, you can do a search here to get the basic info on it, on light meters and on ISO, or get yourself a good basic book.

I know I wrote "basic" a lot, but that's the point. As others said, 35mm film is (relatively) cheap. Go out and shoot. You'll make a lot of mistakes, but that's OK. Basic learning curve is not that great before you start making pretty good pictures.

Most of are writing to the OP as a new user of film who needs to know the basics but I think that as he has a project to write on quite technical aspects of photography he needs to know a lot more that normal user information. However he has yet to confirm this or tells us at what level his project has to be written.

Members must do what they must do of course but if our aim is to help the OP in his project then we need to know more to be able to do this or so I feel.

pentaxuser

Welcome to the forum. We could give you more helpful answers if you would tell us what kind of camera you are using. Also, can you give us more details on the project? Indoors? Outdoors? Will you be photographing people or nature and landscapes? Does your camera have a built-in light meter?

pentaxuser said:

Most of are writing to the OP as a new user of film who needs to know the basics but I think that as he has a project to write on quite technical aspects of photography he needs to know a lot more that normal user information. However he has yet to confirm this or tells us at what level his project has to be written.

Members must do what they must do of course but if our aim is to help the OP in his project then we need to know more to be able to do this or so I feel.

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

I think that's because he opens with "I'm new to analog photography". But you, as others, are right. We need to know more both about his knowledge level and, more importantly, about the project so we can help him better.

Jud23 said:

It also would be very nice and helpful if someone could expalin how to understand the MTF curve. I read something about it, but it's still not really clear to me.

Click to expand...

In the long past films were characterized (aside of other characteristics) by resolution.

Very simplified that means lines/per length unit.
Black and white lines were aligned and looked to what miniaturisation of image a film could still resolve these.

Here already two issues come to play: the contrast between the original black and white line, the minum contrast a human eye can still resolve lines.

But still for the amateur the resolution is the best method to differ films for detail reproduction.
The reslolution typically is given in Line-Pairs/mm
Often when Lines/mm ist stated actually Line-Pairs per millimeter is meant.
Important is the original contrast. Big manufacturers typically give 2 different contrasts and stated them. The respective resolutions vary strongly, thus one should only compare respective resolutions!

The MTF concept found ground in the 60's. It is rather aimed at photo-engineers.
Its idea is to include the contrast issue!
Simply said: the contrast of a line-pair is taken as 100%. Then it is reproduced, with the "frequency" (that is the number of line-pairs per millimeter) rising, and at each step the the resulting contrast measured.

The MTF can be applied on the whole reproduction process, thus including optics, camera, film. It can yield very different results. For instance a high-contrast reproduction that falls off rapidly, or a reproduction that goes much further into high frequencies but at lower contrasrt rather soon.
The latter system would be good for aerial photo-reconnaissance. But only the former would yield an image that in Germany once was called "brilliant". For the amateur it is important to understand this. But this is about the only thing of the MTF concept an amateur should understand for the whole process: that there are two entities, resolution and contrast.

Film Data Sheets vary. See for instance those by IlfordPhoto and then the current ones from Agfa and Kodak(Alaris). The latter obiously are intended at the photo-engineer. IlfordPhoto do not even state resolution...

Jud23 said:

Secondly, in datasheets for Koda color negatives, there are some filters required for specific light, like for Kodak Portra 800 it is said that daylight requires a Filter of 40R. Does anyone know where to get this filters? I can't find them anywhere.

Click to expand...

You misunderstood.
It is not about natural daylight (which has to defined nonetheless) but about the light of fluorescent tubes.
These emmit a non-continuos light-spectrum. Depending on their spectral senstisation films may react diffeently on these, even depending on manufacturer of tube..

40R refers to a sample out of a range of filters foils called Colour Compensating (CC) filters. These are rather weak filters compared to those typically used on b&w film (contrast filters).


Don't let you be misled by what you read in Data Sheets. Keep in mind what I posted above on the intended reader.

Thank you so much for all your help, especially to AgX. I think I understand a lot better now about the data sheet.
Yes, I have to write a scientific report. In detail, it is about comparing analogue photography to digital (in look).
The cameras I will use are Canon EOS 500 N (analogue) and Canon EOS 5D Mark II (digital) of course with the same lens.
To compare them, I will shoot photos with different kinds of films and under different lighting conditions, but,
since I have to be very scientific in my project, I also need to compare and understand basic data, like the mentioned MTF curve, which I understand now.
I also think I understand now the densitiy curves. I think I will not use the filters, since they are hard to get. I rather use color correction in post.
If you have some advices for me and my project left, I would be happy to read them.
Best regards and thanks a lot again to all you kind people.

Jud23 said:

Hi,
The third question is how to use the density curves of blue, red and green of the datasheet to calculate the best exposure.and lightning. I do not understand the mathematics yet, neither do I understand the Log H Ref value. Does anyone know how to use this values correctly?

Click to expand...

It might be easier to go through this if you tell us which film you want to use. If you're new to analogue photography then one excellent piece of advice is to stick to one or two films e.g. Kodak Ektar 100 and Kodak Portra 400 (or whatever your selection is). Get to know how that film works for you, but having chosen a couple of films, then let's talk about the characteristic curves and what you can glean from them.

AgX said:

In the long past films were characterized (aside of other characteristics) by resolution.

Very simplified that means lines/per length unit.
Black and white lines were aligned and looked to what miniaturisation of image a film could still resolve these.

Here already two issues come to play: the contrast between the original black and white line, the minum contrast a human eye can still resolve lines.

But still for the amateur the resolution is the best method to differ films for detail reproduction.
The reslolution typically is given in Line-Pairs/mm
Often when Lines/mm ist stated actually Line-Pairs per millimeter is meant.
Important is the original contrast. Big manufacturers typically give 2 different contrasts and stated them. The respective resolutions vary strongly, thus one should only compare respective resolutions!

The MTF concept found ground in the 60's. It is rather aimed at photo-engineers.
Its idea is to include the contrast issue!
Simply said: the contrast of a line-pair is taken as 100%. Then it is reproduced, with the "frequency" (that is the number of line-pairs per millimeter) rising, and at each step the the resulting contrast measured.

The MTF can be applied on the whole reproduction process, thus including optics, camera, film. It can yield very different results. For instance a high-contrast reproduction that falls off rapidly, or a reproduction that goes much further into high frequencies but at lower contrasrt rather soon.
The latter system would be good for aerial photo-reconnaissance. But only the former would yield an image that in Germany once was called "brilliant". For the amateur it is important to understand this. But this is about the only thing of the MTF concept an amateur should understand for the whole process: that there are two entities, resolution and contrast.

Click to expand...

Love it when you talk technical.

Heres some explanation with pictures. http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html

Thank you so much!
The films I have chosen are:
Kodak Ultramax 400; Kodak Gold 200; Kodak Ektar 100; Kodak T-max 3200; Kodak Portra 160; Kodak Portra 400; Kodak Portra 800
I've chosen them to have a good range of ISO values and Emulsion forms.

Best regards

Jud23 said:

Thank you so much!
The films I have chosen are:
Kodak Ultramax 400; Kodak Gold 200; Kodak Ektar 100; Kodak T-max 3200; Kodak Portra 160; Kodak Portra 400; Kodak Portra 800
I've chosen them to have a good range of ISO values and Emulsion forms.

Best regards

Click to expand...

Wow! That's a lot of films to be getting started with! Might I suggest limiting it to two colour and one (or two) for B&W - at least in the early days. Both Ektar and Portra are very forgiving films, capable of amazing results and excellent dynamic range (exposure latitude).

Jud23 said:

Yes, I have to write a scientific report. In detail, it is about comparing analogue photography to digital (in look).

Click to expand...

Well then clearly the single biggest differentiation is the latitude of film compared to any digi.
Since you list Kodak Ektar 100 and Portra 400, you will find out just how wide their latitudes are.
I start by taking a shot at "ideal" exposure and simply increase exposure by one stop. In the case of Portra 400, I increase that exposure by 10 stops thinking that would be enough to see the end of it given that all the digis I used ended abruptly at +5 with no means of post work recovery even when shooting RAW. This has always been the case since the first DSLRs as anybody who ever used a digi knows to use live histogram to avoid blowing out the highlights. As you can see below, this is not the case when it comes to most color negative films as well as b&w. In fact, I took that +10 overexposed Kodak Portra 400 and with very little post work of white balance and levels, I can still recover a very usable result while the digis are completely unusable.


Higher res version -> http://www.fototime.com/3EDD4D13204247B/orig.jpg

So on one frame of film, I can get details from deep shadows and recover what would otherwise have been blownout highlights from Kodak Portra 400. Be mindful that when scanning, the film itself has already done the heavy lifting, but you will need to SHADOWS and HIGHLIGHTS tools in order to "flatten" the exposure. This is common when making prints in the darkroom.




Also armed with this knowledge, I have options when I come up to a scene that the meter suggests has an ideal setting of 1/60 but because I want to smooth out the water flow, I can confidently shoot it at 1 second knowing I can get usable results such as this scene taken on Fuji 100 color negative.



Another commonly known feature of film is called reciprocity. If you've looked at the datasheets for the films on your list - like Kodak Ektar 100, it states no filters are required when shooting 1/10,000 to 1 second exposure but test if shooting outside of this range. I understand that in years past, reciprocity "failure" occurs when taking shots with long exposures. Well, I've tested quite a few films and none have exhibited any such failures.

For instance this is about 40minutes of aperture priority autoexposure using my Pentax LX using Kodak Ektar 100.



I started taking test shots qualifying just how long my Pentax LX can achieve in aperture priority mode as well as see what this reciprocity may look like but after trying many different brands and seeing no ill effects I quit doing it. Found out that the Pentax LX can achieve aperture priority exposures lasting many hours though!



Good luck with your project and please let us know how that works out!

^^^another excellent example of what makes APUG great.
@Les Sarile Thank you!!!

BradS said:

^^^another excellent example of what makes APUG great.
@Les Sarile Thank you!!!

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Thanks!
We may get a little too passionate sometimes . . .

That's a nice thing about B&W, we know know the precise color range of our final print ;^]