Questions about Premo no. 12 camera

warden · Apr 20, 2017

Hi all,

My parents gifted me with this very cool camera and I'd like to get it functioning properly again. But there are two issues. The first is that it uses glass plates or film packs, neither of which are practical now. This advertisement shows that there was once a roll film adapter available for the camera but I haven't been able to find one yet on eBay or a WTB here. I read that a Graflex adapter works with this camera too but I'm not sure which one. If you happen to know (or have a link to share) I'd certainly appreciate it.

The camera also needs a service as the aperture blades are sticky and don't offer their full travel. It needs a cla but I don't know who to send the camera to so if you have recommendations I'd appreciate that too.

Thanks!

GregW · Apr 20, 2017

Do you have the plate holders as well? If you do, you can get film sheaths for them so you can use sheet film. You can get sheet film through the current limited time ULF run that Ilford is doing. The film sheaths come up on Ebay for not much as this is an odd size.

warden · Apr 20, 2017

GregW said:
Do you have the plate holders as well? If you do, you can get film sheaths for them so you can use sheet film. You can get sheet film through the current limited time ULF run that Ilford is doing. The film sheaths come up on Ebay for not much as this is an odd size.

Thanks Greg, I do have the plate holders so I'll look into the film sheaths as well.

shutterfinger · Apr 20, 2017

What type of back is on the camera?
What shutter is on the camera?
No location in your profile, are you on planet earth?

Post pictures of the lens/shutter and camera back for best responce/identification.

The Premo #12 is well described on pdf pages 12 and 13 of this catalog
http://www.cameramanuals.org/booklets/premo_cameras_1918.pdf
The history of Rodchester Optical Company is here
http://bvipirate.com/Kodak/Rochester.html

This does not give the pituclars of your camera. The Graflex adapter/roll film holder can be the company name or camera type.

Dan Fromm · Apr 20, 2017

Charles, I've had two Premo 12s. They have a sort of book form back that accepts 2.25" x 3.25" film packs and glass plate holders that I believe -- could be mistaken -- are specific to 2.25" x 3.25" Premos. As was pointed out above, a sheet of 2.25" x 3.25" film in a 2.25" x 3.25" film sheath in a 2.25" x 3.25" Premo plate holder might work.

Premo 12s were made from 1912 - 1921 in a variety of specifications. Mine were pre-1915, had, respectively, 85/6.3 Zeiss Kodak Anastigmat (= Tessar IIB) and a Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar IIb. Both lenses in tiny Compounds.

shutterfinger · Apr 20, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
They have a sort of book form back that accepts 2.25" x 3.25" film packs and glass plate holders that I believe -- could be mistaken -- are specific to 2.25" x 3.25" Premos

Tells me every thing I need to know to make an adapter for a Graflex Graphic 23 knob wind roll film holder I have on hand. NOT.

shutterfinger · Apr 20, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Mine were pre-1915, had, respectively, 85/6.3 Zeiss Kodak Anastigmat (= Tessar IIB) and a Carl Zeiss Jena Tessar IIb. Both lenses in tiny Compounds.

Early Compounds used Lacquered Paper aperture blades. The OP states the aperture does not work properly. If the shutter has lacquered paper aperture blades then its a display piece IMO.

Dan Fromm · Apr 20, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Tells me every thing I need to know to make an adapter for a Graflex Graphic 23 knob wind roll film holder I have on hand. NOT.

Charles, go here http://www.cameramanuals.org/booklets/premo_cameras_1918.pdf An illustration of a pack film Premo -- that's what the 12 is -- with its back open to let a film pack be inserted is on the fifth page in. I don't think that adapting a modern 2x3 Graphic roll holder to a Premo 12 is very practical. I could be mistaken, but when I had mine I couldn't for the life of me see how it could be done.

Dan Fromm · Apr 20, 2017

shutterfinger said:
Early Compounds used Lacquered Paper aperture blades. The OP states the aperture does not work properly. If the shutter has lacquered paper aperture blades then its a display piece IMO.

They were also delivered with Wollensak Optimo shutters and EKCo ball bearing shutters. Best to wait to hear from the OP before concluding anything.

shutterfinger · Apr 20, 2017

The 1916 ROC Premo catalog http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1916premolp871.htm is the first catalog to show the #12. The catalogs starting 1912 and up http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogsrochester.htm show the adapter for film packs much clearer.
I think a Roll Film Holder can be made to fit like a film pack but the question is will the plane of focus be the same as plate holders or film packs or adjusted back. It looks like the camera back has the hinged with latch back that was common on plate cameras of the day. I read the 1918 catalog listing before making my first post.

Dan Fromm · Apr 20, 2017

Charles, it is the first catalog you've found so far that shows the Premo #12. One of my #12s antedates it. It seems that "Zeiss Kodak Anastigmat" lenses as it had were last offered in 1915.

Incidentally, I misspoke when I said that one of mine had had a CZJ Tessar IIb. My inventory shows it as a B&L Tessar IIb.

shutterfinger · Apr 20, 2017

I have found vintage cameras did not appear in catalogs the year they were introduced. They sometimes don't show up until 2 or 3 years later, no fixed rule. It may have to do with the lead time printers of the day needed.

I have a 2x3 film pack adapter that can be modified also.

warden · Apr 21, 2017

Everyone, thanks for your attention, I do appreciate it. Mr. Shutterfinger - I am indeed on planet Earth, if only for a while, and I reside in Philadelphia. Attached are a few pictures of the camera showing some detail. Also, thanks for the links to the period catalogs, which are wonderful!

Dan Fromm · Apr 21, 2017

Thanks for the images. Ilex Acme shutter! Who'd a thunk it? And the GG and film holders slide in. My memory is clearly failing. Adapting a modern roll holder might be possible after all.

I'm in Cherry Hill, also on earth. We might be able to get together with y'r Premo and one of my modern Graflex roll holders for a trial fit. I'm not hopeful but the question hasn't been asked yet.

warden · Apr 21, 2017

Dan Fromm said:
Thanks for the images. Ilex Acme shutter! Who'd a thunk it? And the GG and film holders slide in. My memory is clearly failing. Adapting a modern roll holder might be possible after all.

I'm in Cherry Hill, also on earth. We might be able to get together with y'r Premo and one of my modern Graflex roll holders for a trial fit. I'm not hopeful but the question hasn't been asked yet.

Dan that would be fun and well worth a trek to Cherry Hill. I'll PM you. Thanks!

shutterfinger · Apr 21, 2017

A roll film holder will need to be fitted to a film pack adapter frame or have a frame custom made that slides into the camera. Film pack adapters in the catalog have a single light trap ridge so the more modern ones with two light trap ridges may have to be modified.
I have never seen an Acme dial set before, internally its likely similar to this one

Tested, a 2x3 RFH base matches the base of a film pack adapter. Depending on how deeply the ground glass is recessed into its frame will determine how thick of a shim will be needed to position a RFH film plane at the same position as the front surface of the ground glass. There is a chance the wind knob will hit the holder edge of the camera and a lever wind Graphic RFH will be worse.

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