Question regarding poor print wash

Doremus Scudder · Apr 13, 2021

R.Gould said:
The two formulas I gave if ! the selenium toner test and the HT2 test, I have used both for 60 years, both give the same results, I did not give any formula for ST1, are, over here, used for as a residual fixer test, at least where I grew up, and bot are given as residual fixer tests in many formula books as tests for residual fixer tests for both film and paper, as these days I print mainly on RC I don't need these tests, and even with FB paper I don't bother, but neither test has let me down in my experience,

None of that changes the fact that selenium toner reacts with silver in the emulsion, not hypo. That's why it tones prints in the first place and why it can be used as a residual silver test, which is a test for adequate fixation. It doesn't matter whether it's over here, over there or wherever.

I mentioned the ST-1 test only to point out that using selenium toner as a test is a substitute for it. That is how it first came to my attention years ago and what I use it for these days.

FWIW, my source is the Kodak Tech Pub. J-1, "Kodak Processing Chemicals & Formulas," 1973, p.41. Here's the relevant section, right after the section on the ST-1 test:

"Testing with KODAK Rapid Selenium Toner
If you wish to use a more stable reagent than KODAK Residual Silver Test Solution ST1, you can use a dilute solution of KODAK Rapid Selenium Toner to test whether prints are thoroughly fixed.
To use, dilute 1 part of KODAK Rapid Selenium Toner with 9 parts of water. These proportions are not critical. Using this solution, follow the directions given above for the use of KODAK Residual Silver Test Solution ST-1. [Instructions for using the ST-1 test are: "Place a drop of the test solution on the margin of a squeegeed film or print... Remove the solution with a clean white blotter after 2 or 3 minutes. Any yellowing of the test spot other than a barely visible cream tint, indicates the presence of silver. If the test is positive, residual silver can be removed by refixing the print or negative..."]
NOTE: The test fails where a very large excess of hypo is present, as in stabilized prints."

I have never seen any reference in the literature to using selenium toner as a test for residual hypo. Certainly, Kodak does not mention it. If you have any such references, then I'd be very interested in seeing them.

Best,

Doremus

R.Gould · Apr 13, 2021

My publication beats yous by a good few years, I inherttied it , it is called Photographic Formulas, published in 1935, and it gives the formula as a simple formula for testing for residual fixer on film, plates, and photographic printing media. It is also given as a film and paper residual fixer test in Eddie Epharaums '' creative elements landscape photography and darkroom techniques which wqas publiched by 21st Centuary Publishing Ltd in London, but has been well known over t his side of the pond for at least a Centuary, so it must work, also the Silver Nitrate solution is Kodak ST-2 not ST1, I have no formula for ST1, but I don't have any Kodak publications, they were rathe hard to get hold of, and apart from Creative Elements all of my chemistry and much else I inherited from an uncle of mine who as crazy about black and white photography as I was,

NB23 · Apr 13, 2021

Just like that... does Viradon polysulfide toning help mitigate insufficient washing/fixing since the print’s silver is replaced by silver compound ( silver sulfide, or whatever the correct technical term is)?

Doremus Scudder · Apr 14, 2021

R.Gould said:
My publication beats yous by a good few years, I inherited it , it is called Photographic Formulas, published in 1935, and it gives the formula as a simple formula for testing for residual fixer on film, plates, and photographic printing media. It is also given as a film and paper residual fixer test in Eddie Epharaum's '' creative elements landscape photography and darkroom techniques which was published by 21st Century Publishing Ltd in London, but has been well known over t his side of the pond for at least a century, so it must work, also the Silver Nitrate solution is Kodak ST-2 not ST1, I have no formula for ST1, but I don't have any Kodak publications, they were rather hard to get hold of, and apart from Creative Elements all of my chemistry and much else I inherited from an uncle of mine who as crazy about black and white photography as I was,

R.Gould,

I think you're confusing the residual hypo test, HT-2, which contains silver nitrate and acetic acid for the residual silver test, ST-1, which contains sodium sulfide. The former is for testing washing efficiency, the latter for adequate fixation.

As for selenium toner being used as a test for residual hypo: I'm still skeptical. Could you post a scan of your sources please, with the relevant publication data too so I can do a bit more research?

Thanks in advance,

Doremus

grain elevator · Apr 14, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
R.Gould,

I think you're confusing the residual hypo test, HT-2, which contains silver nitrate and acetic acid for the residual silver test, ST-1, which contains sodium sulfide. The former is for testing washing efficiency, the latter for adequate fixation.

As for selenium toner being used as a test for residual hypo: I'm still skeptical. Could you post a scan of your sources please, with the relevant publication data too so I can do a bit more research?

Thanks in advance,

Doremus

I, for one, am certain selenium toner cannot be used as a residual hypo test. Some people routinely selenium tone without washing before, and some selenium toners supposedly contain hypo - both would not work if selenium toner was a way to test for retained hypo.
What it might do is react with silver loaded overused fixer.

R.Gould · Apr 14, 2021

I am not mistraken, I have just again checked both of my source books .one from the 1930's and Creative elements and both give HT2 and the toner formula as residual fixer tests, as for wash water fixer tests, simple distelled water,1000 ml potassium permanganate sodium carbonate anhydrous pot a few drops of the wash water into a clean glass and the same quanity of tap water into another,add 1 drop of the above formula to both solutions should clear at the same time, b ut if the wash water contains thiosulphite it will clear faster.I have been using both of the residual fixer tests for 60 years without problems,
as far as scanning either of my source books, I would need to detach the pages to do so with the rather old and primitive equipment I have so no, I am not prepared to destroy the books, but whatever you think I donnot believe that a modern book and a historical process book giving the same formulas can be that wrong, as for st1, I have never heard of it and can find no refference to ST 1 in either of my source books so sorry, I must disasagree with you and as for a washer efficiency test, again from both my 30's book and creative elementsfor film and paper washers,2.00 potassium permanganate 100 ml disttilled water 100ml add enough of the solution to create a even light purple mixture turn the washer on and note the time for the solution to clear, and be completely replaced by clear water, this shoukld idealy be 5 minutes enough for 12 complete wash changes in 1 hoiurs wash.
Richard
PS sory for my typos and spelling but I have just had my second covid injection and am not quite my normal self

NB23 · Apr 14, 2021

Selenium on a poorly fixed print will stain... so by this logic a drop of selenium on a poorly washed print should stain. But this is as far as my chemist’ mind can go and I have no idea if I am correct.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 17, 2021

R.Gould said:
I am not mistaken, I have just again checked both of my source books .one from the 1930's and Creative elements and both give HT2 and the toner formula as residual fixer tests, as for wash water fixer tests, simple distilled water,1000 ml potassium permanganate sodium carbonate anhydrous pot a few drops of the wash water into a clean glass and the same quantity of tap water into another,add 1 drop of the above formula to both solutions should clear at the same time, but if the wash water contains thiosulphite it will clear faster.I have been using both of the residual fixer tests for 60 years without problems,
as far as scanning either of my source books, I would need to detach the pages to do so with the rather old and primitive equipment I have so no, I am not prepared to destroy the books, but whatever you think I do not believe that a modern book and a historical process book giving the same formulas can be that wrong, as for st1, I have never heard of it and can find no reference to ST 1 in either of my source books so sorry, I must disagree with you and as for a washer efficiency test, again from both my 30's book and creative elements for film and paper washers,2.00 potassium permanganate 100 ml distilled water 100ml add enough of the solution to create a even light purple mixture turn the washer on and note the time for the solution to clear, and be completely replaced by clear water, this should ideal be 5 minutes enough for 12 complete wash changes in 1 hour wash.
Richard
PS sorry for my typos and spelling but I have just had my second covid injection and am not quite my normal self

Richard,

Look here: https://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/Kodak j-1.pdf on page 41.

Kodak's research and publications at the time this book of formulas was published was second to none and, as far as I'm concerned, definitive. I rest my case.

I don't know what you have for references, since I can't find them anywhere on the Internet. I understand your reluctance to scan you books, however, it's pretty easy to type out the relevant citations along with page numbers, etc. Heck, if you're lazy, just photograph the relevant sections with your smart phone and post the photos.

Doremus

R.Gould · Apr 18, 2021

Creative elements isbn 0-9525989-06 156 formula 35 film and paper residual fixer test kodak ht2 page 157 formula 36 film and paper residual fixer test same page 37 washer efficiency test 156 34 wash water fixer test.as far as photographing the pages, not as easy as you think as I do not have a digital camera, and the mobile phone I have does not have a camera in it. these are from Creative elements, a book that since first published in 1993 has become a bible for a great many photographers over here,the 1935 book I cannot give isbn number, it didn't exist in 1935, you may think the Kodak publication is a bible, we willm simply have to disagree over that, I have read it, and binned it, sorry but in 60 years of photography Ilford publications for a lot, and the 1935 book and Creative Elements have proven over time to be accurate

grain elevator · Apr 18, 2021

NB23 said:
Selenium on a poorly fixed print will stain... so by this logic a drop of selenium on a poorly washed print should stain. But this is as far as my chemist’ mind can go and I have no idea if I am correct.

Logic? Poorly fixed does not equal poorly washed

NB23 · Apr 18, 2021

grain elevator said:
Logic? Poorly fixed does not equal poorly washed

indeed!
But what I truly meant to say was that selenium stains when there is present fixer such as, for example, when toning prints that haven’t been well rinsed beforehand. It happened to me when I took the prints from the water holding bath directly into the selenium bath, which resulted with stains.

The presence of fixer caused the selenium to stain...

grain elevator · Apr 18, 2021

NB23 said:
indeed!
But what I truly meant to say was that selenium stains when there is present fixer such as, for example, when toning prints that haven’t been well rinsed beforehand. It happened to me when I took the prints from the water holding bath directly into the selenium bath, which resulted with stains.

The presence of fixer caused the selenium to stain...

Hmmm but toning prints right after fixing is what Ilford recommend (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/)... I suspect one may get stains if there's too much silver in the fixer, not from the fixer itself.

NB23 · Apr 18, 2021

grain elevator said:
Hmmm but toning prints right after fixing is what Ilford recommend (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/)... I suspect one may get stains if there's too much silver in the fixer, not from the fixer itself.

I once decided to outsmart ilford and made my water holding bath a selenium bath 1:20. The result was that all the 40 5x7 prints were stained to varying degrees, both sides of the prints.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 18, 2021

Transferring prints to the toner directly from the second fix is what I do. No staining except once, years ago, with exhausted fixer. If you are getting staining when transferring prints from the fix directly to the toner either the fix is exhausted (too much dissolved silver) or the fixer is too acidic (like Kodak F-5 or the like). The trick is to use a less acidic fixer (Ilford's fixers fit the bill) or use a plain hypo fixer as bath two immediately before toning, as AA recommended.

@Richard,
I've ordered Ephraum's "Creative Elements" and will check out the pages you mention. Too bad you couldn't see your way clear to actually quote the relevant sections...

FWIW, Ilford's tech sheet on processing B&W papers gives the following formula for the residual silver test solution, it is identical to Kodak's ST-1 formula (Ilford Fact Sheet, "Processing B&W Paper, Dec. 2001, p.2, here: https://www.emsdiasum.com/microscopy/technical/datasheet/ilford/95065d.pdf )

"Checking paper is adequately fixed
Prepare the testing solution by dissolving 2g of sodium sulphide in 125ml of water. Take care to follow the health and safety information supplied by the manufacturer of the sodium sulphide. For use, dilute the testing solution 1+9 with water.

To establish a permanent reference for a particular type of paper, place a drop of the diluted testing solution on a white area of a print that is known to be well fixed (through two fresh fixing baths) and thoroughly washed. Remove any excess solution with clean blotting paper or absorbent tissue. A barely visible cream tint should be left. This is the reference colour for a well fixed and washed print on this type of paper.

Any subsequent prints that show a yellowing of the test spot are not properly fixed. Soak such prints in water for 5 minutes, then repeat the recommended fixing and washing sequence, using fresh fixer. Prints must be well washed before using the test. It is not effective on prints direct from the fixer bath."

Ilford does not seem to give a test for residual hypo (i.e., no test for adequate washing), which is too bad. I only know of the Kodak HT-2 test. I still don't think the selenium toner test will work for residual hypo; it is an alternate test for residual silver.

Best,

Doremus

Mr Bill · Apr 18, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
... or use a plain hypo fixer as bath two immediately before toning, as AA recommended.

Fwiw I'm skeptical that AA would recommend a fixer without sulfite in it, which is how I would interpret the term "plain hypo fixer." So if you're not including something like sodium sulfite it might be worth verifying what AA said.

R.Gould · Apr 19, 2021

You must indeed have money to waste to and pay for a book to try and prove me wrong, However, the section you want is FORMULARY. the section is FIXER TESTS starts on page 156, column 3 1 formula down. and the 2 formulas are one after the other formula's 35 and 36, and I will give the formula's word for word as the appear in book.
35 FILM AND PAPER RESIDUAL FIXER TEST-KODAK HT2.
Distilled or deionised water 350.00 ml
Acetic Acid 10% solution 175.00ml
Silver Nitrate 3.75g
deionised water 500 00 ml

Remove surplus water from the washed image
place a drop of the solution on the clear film rebate or white print margin
leave for 2 or 3 minutes then rinse and blot dry
no more than just a very slight cream stain is acceptable
for more accurate assessment use this test with Kodak's Hypo Estimator colour chart
store the solution in a brown bottle away from light.

36 Film and paper residual fixer test
Kodak selenium toner 10.00 ml
water 90.ooml
Remove surplus water
place a drop on the film rebate or white print margin
leave for 2 minutes , then rinse and blot dry
no more than a just a very light cream stain is acceptable.

Reading the pages from Kodak you scanned this is pretty much the same as Kodak published.
The above is word for word as published in the book Creative Element, also in my 1935 formula book

Nowhere do Ilford say this is a test for residual SILVER. they say it is a test for adequate fixing. thetests I give is stated to be tests for residual fixer in film and paper.

R.Gould · Apr 19, 2021

grain elevator said:
Hmmm but toning prints right after fixing is what Ilford recommend (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/)... I suspect one may get stains if there's too much silver in the fixer, not from the fixer itself.

Yes that is the correct way with Selinium toneer, it contains Hypo, but the OP was asking about brown toner and that is a different animal altogether, so complete the archival process as suggested by Ilford, after that and the final wash then tone with Brown,blue Ect, they do not contain hypo.

grain elevator · Apr 19, 2021

R.Gould said:
Yes that is the correct way with Selinium toneer, it contains Hypo, but the OP was asking about brown toner and that is a different animal altogether, so complete the archival process as suggested by Ilford, after that and the final wash then tone with Brown,blue Ect, they do not contain hypo.

I don't see a problem with brown toner right from the holding bath either, did that just yesterday.

R.Gould · Apr 19, 2021

I suppose it depends on the toner, I only use sepia, and if the paper is not washed properly after processing, and put into the bleach the residual fixer will mix with bleach it will contaminate the bleach, first one or two will be fine, but the bleach will just stop working, and the fixer in the bleached will change the way the toner works, I have tried, ended up throwing away the whole bleach/toner after 4 prints, much better to follow the Ilford sequence, then tone, something you can do a day or a week later, also, I much prefer to decide which print will be enhanced by toning after processing and when dry.

grain elevator · Apr 19, 2021

Right, ferri bleach with fixer (=Farmer's reducer) won't last long. Polysulfide/brown toner however can be used as a direct toner, without bleaching.

R.Gould · Apr 19, 2021

I have never used polysulphide toner's, I like the control I have over the process with Sepia, plus I have been told that polysulphide toner tends to be smelly, I don't know but only what I have been told, and I still haven't lived down the time I used Sulphide, every time I get the toner out my Mrs still says I hope it's not that one that stinks the house out of rotten eggs, I prefer the stinky toner, but Thio keeps peace at home, and that is worth much more

Doremus Scudder · Apr 19, 2021

Mr Bill said:
Fwiw I'm skeptical that AA would recommend a fixer without sulfite in it, which is how I would interpret the term "plain hypo fixer." So if you're not including something like sodium sulfite it might be worth verifying what AA said.

Ansel Adams "plain hypo" fixer does indeed contain sodium sulfite. I figured anyone interested in using his method would look up his recipe. Here it is, for those interested:

"The first fixing of the prints should be in an acid-hardener fixer (Kodak F-S or F-6, or the pre-mixed Kodak Fixer), for about 3 minutes with continuous agitation. This is followed by a thorough rinse. When ready to tone, treat the prints with a plain hypo bath (2 pounds of hypo per gallon, to which about 4 ounces of sodium sulfite is added) for 3 minutes."

From: Adams, A, The Print, Little, Brown and Company, NY. 2006, p. 132

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder · Apr 19, 2021

R.Gould said:
You must indeed have money to waste to and pay for a book to try and prove me wrong, However, the section you want is FORMULARY. the section is FIXER TESTS starts on page 156, column 3 1 formula down. and the 2 formulas are one after the other formula's 35 and 36, and I will give the formula's word for word as the appear in book.
35 FILM AND PAPER RESIDUAL FIXER TEST-KODAK HT2.
Distilled or deionised water 350.00 ml
Acetic Acid 10% solution 175.00ml
Silver Nitrate 3.75g
deionised water 500 00 ml

Remove surplus water from the washed image
place a drop of the solution on the clear film rebate or white print margin
leave for 2 or 3 minutes then rinse and blot dry
no more than just a very slight cream stain is acceptable
for more accurate assessment use this test with Kodak's Hypo Estimator colour chart
store the solution in a brown bottle away from light.

36 Film and paper residual fixer test
Kodak selenium toner 10.00 ml
water 90.ooml
Remove surplus water
place a drop on the film rebate or white print margin
leave for 2 minutes , then rinse and blot dry
no more than a just a very light cream stain is acceptable.

Reading the pages from Kodak you scanned this is pretty much the same as Kodak published.
The above is word for word as published in the book Creative Element, also in my 1935 formula book

Nowhere do Ilford say this is a test for residual SILVER. they say it is a test for adequate fixing. the tests I give is stated to be tests for residual fixer in film and paper.

Richard,

First off, I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm trying to learn something.

Second, I paid a whole $3.99 for Creative Elements from a used book online source. It seemed like a good book to have in my library.

Third, thanks for the quotes and citations from the book.

The formula with selenium toner that you quote is exactly what Kodak publishes, just expressed in discreet quantities instead of a ratio.

It is indeed a test for adequate fixing.

You state: "Nowhere do Ilford say this is a test for residual SILVER. they say it is a test for adequate fixing."

Note that a test for adequate fixation IS the test for residual silver. The test for residual hypo is the test for adequate washing.

In other words, testing for adequate fixing is testing for residual silver. For this, you can use the Kodak ST-1 test or the alternate test using selenium toner.

You have simply confused adequate fixation with adequate washing.

I rest my case...

Doremus

Mr Bill · Apr 19, 2021

Doremus Scudder said:
Ansel Adams "plain hypo" fixer does indeed contain sodium sulfite. I figured anyone interested in using his method would look up his recipe.

Thanks for the confirmation. Some spare sulfite can be pretty important in a fixer. And, not well known, it's pretty much essential to do electrolytic desilvering.

R.Gould · Apr 20, 2021

I am not going to argue any more about formulas, , Creative elements is known over here as the sigle best book
on this subject published in many years, by a master of his subject, it changed a lot of my methods of working and thinking on this subject, and as far as residual fixi ng tests, or anything else, I no longer bother with it, I rarely use FB paper these days, the new RC5 paper is so good that I don't see the reason, much the same as I felt a long time ago when I first used Kentmere RC paper, before the Harman take over and they ruined the paper, everything I can do on FB I can now do on RC, plus where I live I can only get raw chemicals by filling out a long and complicated set of forms,and thanks for admiting I was correct, your Kodak book and my books say the same thing you can use Selinium tone for a fixer test, I also rest my case

Question regarding poor print wash

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