Question. Minolta XD-11 or Minolta FM2N.

CMoore · Apr 21, 2018

The Minolta does not try to poke a stick in your eye......
That has to be the worst feature, of any SLR between 1960 and 2000
I have never understood why Nikon did it with the FM Series.
Did any other manufacture set up their SLR like that.?

Les Sarile · Apr 22, 2018

Chan Tran said:
I agree with you but I want loud shutter it's not scientific. Just preference.

Yup, I too have technical and personal preferences and sure appreciate the wealth of choices!

Les Sarile · Apr 22, 2018

CMoore said:
The Minolta does not try to poke a stick in your eye......
That has to be the worst feature, of any SLR between 1960 and 2000
I have never understood why Nikon did it with the FM Series.
Did any other manufacture set up their SLR like that.?

I read an issue where Herb Keppler said his wife got poked in the eye by Nikon's film advance lever sticking out and found that feature unforgivable!
Of course in the review of the XD-11, it was pointed out that the battery got drained in the camera bag when something was leaning on the shutter button. This doesn't happen with Nikon's film advance shutoff function.

Theo Sulphate · Apr 22, 2018

Ralph Javins said:
... The XD-11 is one of the three cameras that are the subject of argument among Minolta owners over which one was the best Minolta produced; the XK/XK-M, the XD-11, or the Dynax 9/Maxxum 9.
...

My choice is Maxxum / Dynax 7 over the 9 or the XK. I'm fortunate to own one. I still think the XD-11 is a wonderful design though.

Chan Tran · Apr 22, 2018

Les Sarile said:
I read an issue where Herb Keppler said his wife got poked in the eye by Nikon's film advance lever sticking out and found that feature unforgivable!
Of course in the review of the XD-11, it was pointed out that the battery got drained in the camera bag when something was leaning on the shutter button. This doesn't happen with Nikon's film advance shutoff function.

Just showing the matter of preference. The poking stick is my favorite feature because I never forget to turn the meter off yet I can leave it on as long as I want. It never poke my eye because I am right eyed. In fact I like the way it provide a resting place for my thumb.

Chan Tran · Apr 22, 2018

I don't have the F2 for 34 years now I can't remember how to turn the meter on. Is it the same way as the FM?

68degrees · Apr 22, 2018

Les Sarile said:
....Also, my preference for the LX over the F3 -... is also a scientifically quantifiable characteristic of being able to make the longest aperture priority autoexposure.....

Do you know for a fact the LX can make a longer aperture priority autoexposure than the Nikon EL2 or FE's? They can go minute or even hours according to KR.

Les Sarile · Apr 22, 2018

68degrees said:
Do you know for a fact the LX can make a longer aperture priority autoexposure than the Nikon EL2 or FE's? They can go minute or even hours according to KR.

I've tested the FE but not the EL2. Can you provide KR's post?
In any case both of those make an initial reading and are blind to changes in lighting condition once the shutter has fired.

68degrees · Apr 23, 2018

He reviews the FE and makes that statement. The EL2 is the same exact meter according to minolta so Im deducing that what the FE does, the EL2 does.

He also mentions it a little on his review of the EL2 which is found https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/el2.htm#performance
"My exposures are all perfect, from 1/1,000 to many seconds. In fact, it will make automatic exposures far longer than 8 seconds, even though it's only rated to 8 seconds on automatic.
When I have made 32 second automatic exposures they seemed a little dark, but that's because I forgot to compensate manually for Velvia 50's reciprocity failure."

Heres a quote from his review of the FE at https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/fe.htm#usage
"Long Exposures

The FE's internal circuitry is analog, so it has none of the hard range limits of newer cameras with digital circuitry.

If you shoot scenes at night, the FE will meter and clock-off time exposures automatically. Forget newer cameras which require you to sit there like a dork holding a cable release while watching a wristwatch and holding a flashlight to see it all.

With an FE (or FE2 or FA), compose the scene, cover the eyepiece if your eye isn't on it, wind the self timer, and press the shutter.

The FE measures and locks the exposure, flips up the mirror, counts off about ten seconds, and then makes the time exposure automatically.

You don't need a cable release, and the mirror locks up and returns all by itself. It is way, way superior to any digital Nikon.

I've never had the patience to wait around and see just how long the Nikon FE will expose.

Out of curiosity, I loaded fresh A76 cells into an FE set to ASA 50 and, with the lens cap on in AUTO, pressed the shutter.

The shutter stayed open for 63 minutes, and then closed at ISO 50. Whoa!

I tried it again set to ASA 400, and the FE stayed open for 3 minutes and then 17 minutes. It will vary by temperature and the amount of light to which the FE was exposed a little while before you started the exposure. Remember, the FE is analog, and it's the leakage currents which are defining the long exposure times.

These times correspond to LV -13 with an f/1.4 lens, which is about ten stops darker than normal night time.

These times are with a wide-open lens. The FE calculates even longer times if you stop down your lens!

The FE doesn't calculate corrections for reciprocity failure. Luckily, the lessened effective exposure with most film gives the darker results we want to make night shots look like night; otherwise night shots would look as bright as day."

Les Sarile · Apr 23, 2018

KR generally provides examples but not in this case possibly due to his statement about not having the patience for it. You will note that at ASA400 he had two vastly different exposures of 3 and 17 minutes. This sounds like what I get with all Nikons, greatly varying times making for very unpredictable results.

Chan Tran · Apr 23, 2018

I would like to ask anyone with an F3 to test how long an exposure it would make in A and no light. I had several F3 but failed to test them. The one I am using now only does 8 sec but I like it that way.

68degrees · Apr 23, 2018

Les Sarile said:
KR generally provides examples but not in this case possibly due to his statement about not having the patience for it. You will note that at ASA400 he had two vastly different exposures of 3 and 17 minutes. This sounds like what I get with all Nikons, greatly varying times making for very unpredictable results.

true but he qualifies his remarks in the very next sentence

"It will vary by temperature and the amount of light to which the FE was exposed a little while before you started the exposure. Remember, the FE is analog, and it's the leakage currents which are defining the long exposure times."

He does say that the long exposures in A mode yield great exposures in practice. Thats worth something coming from him, he is quite a particular person.

Chan Tran · Apr 23, 2018

Why I don't hear complaints about the F2 poking the eye with the film advance level but heard about that with the FM's?

Theo Sulphate · Apr 23, 2018

It is very aggravating to require the film advance lever to be pulled out slightly to activate the meter and especially to release the shutter. I hate that!

Meter should be activated by a dedicated switch or button - totally separate from function of the wind lever. These are different functions and therefore should be different controls.

Maybe since I used a Pentax SP500 exclusively for 15 years I became accustomed to always having the wind lever flush when releasing the shutter.

One of the reasons I like the first version of the FM (with the knurled shutter release collar) is that it allows you to release the shutter with the wind lever pushed in. The second version requires you to extend the lever to the stand-off position.

Bad!

CMoore · Apr 23, 2018

Chan Tran said:
Why I don't hear complaints about the F2 poking the eye with the film advance level but heard about that with the FM's?

The F2 is to activate The Meter Only. You can go Minutes or hours without needing access to the meter.
The FM is different.. For the meter to work, the lever needs to be out, yes, but the shutter also needs that lever out. Being "Poked In The Eye" is a misnomer of sorts. Supporters of The FM like to hang on that. The problem is, and LOTS of people have complained about it over the years, is........"No" other camera functions like this. Who winds the film, and does not return the lever all the way.? The natural inclination is to store it against the camera body. So it is Very Easy (unless the FM is your "go to") to try to take a picture and realize the shutter will not fire, because the lever is in.
ALSO, it is very easy to accidentally push or bump the lever back in...be it with your head, hand, finger, as it hangs against the side of your body, etc etc etc..... and again, when you take a shot, the shutter will not move. That can be a major bummer as life walks past you.
CAN you get acclimated to it.?.....Of Course. Its not as though the FM never sees use. It has its loyal fans. But with so many other SLR of the same quality and ilk, why deal with it.?
I have Three, and it is my least used camera, just for that reason. Kind of a shame IMHO.
It is a lousy design, how many SLR use that system.?.......There You Go.

Chan Tran · Apr 23, 2018

CMoore said:
The F2 is to activate The Meter Only. You can go Minutes or hours without needing access to the meter.
The FM is different.. For the meter to work, the lever needs to be out, yes, but the shutter also needs that lever out. Being "Poked In The Eye" is a misnomer of sorts. Supporters of The FM like to hang on that. The problem is, and LOTS of people have complained about it over the years, is........"No" other camera functions like this. Who winds the film, and does not return the lever all the way.? The natural inclination is to store it against the camera body. So it is Very Easy (unless the FM is your "go to") to try to take a picture and realize the shutter will not fire, because the lever is in.
ALSO, it is very easy to accidentally push or bump the lever back in...be it with your head, hand, finger, as it hangs against the side of your body, etc etc etc..... and again, when you take a shot, the shutter will not move. That can be a major bummer as life walks past you.
CAN you get acclimated to it.?.....Of Course. Its not as though the FM never sees use. It has its loyal fans. But with so many other SLR of the same quality and ilk, why deal with it.?
I have Three, and it is my least used camera, just for that reason. Kind of a shame IMHO.
It is a lousy design, how many SLR use that system.?.......There You Go.

I like that system. When I switch from the F2 to F3 I hated the F3 that I have to keep my finger on the shutter release to keep the meter on. On all camera with level wind I always leave the film advance crank out when I use the camera. When I put it down it push it back in. The reason I want to advance the film quickly after releasing the shutter.

Theo Sulphate · Apr 23, 2018

CMoore said:
...
It is a lousy design, how many SLR use that system.?.......There You Go.

I agree - see my post preceding yours. Note that the first version of the FM allowed a shutter release with the lever in, as I mentioned.

bluechromis · Apr 23, 2018

I have the XA-11 and have found it to be a gem of camera. It is relatively small and quiet. Not only does it have both automatic and manual exposure, you can see the aperture and shutter speed setting through the viewfinder. I think is one of the best manual SLR bodies ever made. It feels really nice in the hand. The importance of ergonomics is not to be under estimated. I have not had the Nikon. There is certainly nothing wrong with Nikon lenses and a greater variety there. But I find the Minolta lenses to be superb with nice bokeh and consistent color rendition. Because they have been underrated, they have been quite a bit cheaper than Nikon, Zeiss, and Canon glass. Unless there is a Nikon lens your really must have, I would stick with the XA-11 since you already have it. There are some dedicated Minolta flash units for XA-11, which may not be that much better than period peers, but do offer some conveniences..

Les Sarile · Apr 23, 2018

Chan Tran said:
I would like to ask anyone with an F3 to test how long an exposure it would make in A and no light. I had several F3 but failed to test them. The one I am using now only does 8 sec but I like it that way.

The proper way to test long exposure is to walk it up in exposure time with a controlled light. I just retested my F3 by first setting up metered exposures of 1 . . 2 . . 4 . . 8 seconds as closely indicated by the meter as the actual time may vary slightly. Of course it doesn't show anything above 8 but it will take longer and longer exposures as you close the aperture down. I was able to make reliable/repeatable multi-minutes long exposures.
Of course what is more important then long exposure times is repeatable long exposure time.

Les Sarile · Apr 23, 2018

bluechromis said:
I have the XA-11 and have found it to be a gem of camera.

I take it you mean XD-11 . . .

Les Sarile · Apr 23, 2018

68degrees said:
true but he qualifies his remarks in the very next sentence

I am sure he does a fine job but he is not here to represent himself.
Just to be sure, these are well outside the specs as documented by the manufacturers and so may not work or maybe exceed expectations. In my case, I have qualified both of my Pentax LX's to not only aperture autoexpose controlled lighting scenes lasting many hours long but more importantly have reliable/repeatable results. All the others I have tested do not. Again, since these are outside the specs, perhaps these are anomalous behavior.

bluechromis · Apr 23, 2018

Les Sarile said:
I take it you mean XD-11 . . .

bluechromis · Apr 23, 2018

Yes, meant XD-11.

68degrees · Apr 24, 2018

Les Sarile said:
I am sure he does a fine job but he is not here to represent himself.
Just to be sure, these are well outside the specs as documented by the manufacturers and so may not work or maybe exceed expectations. In my case, I have qualified both of my Pentax LX's to not only aperture autoexpose controlled lighting scenes lasting many hours long but more importantly have reliable/repeatable results. All the others I have tested do not. Again, since these are outside the specs, perhaps these are anomalous behavior.

So does the LX manual specify that long exposures (ie minutes and hours) are perfectly within the design of the camera and features that can be used at will with full expectation of accuracy and repeatability? and what about the Pentax ME? Does that one do long exposures?

Les Sarile · Apr 24, 2018

68degrees said:
So does the LX manual specify that long exposures (ie minutes and hours) are perfectly within the design of the camera and features that can be used at will with full expectation of accuracy and repeatability? and what about the Pentax ME? Does that one do long exposures?

Even the LX was not intended to perform in that manner and only guaranteed to 125 seconds as listed in the manual. Since both of mine perform similarly, I don't believe it is coincidence but I am trying to get a third just to be sure.
No the Pentax ME Super does not and neither does the K2, Super Program or other Pentax AV bodies. I heard that the Pentax K2DMD does but suspect testing was very limited. But of course it doesn't meter off the film so it is blind to light changes after it fires.

Question. Minolta XD-11 or Minolta FM2N.

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