Question for the venerable ones, re: B&W materials of today

Panatomic-X and Oriental Seagull gr. 3

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Yum Yum, they were my favorites too.

Ron, I think your missing out a whole fundamental aspect of the older warm tone papers. We aren't talking about pigments or dyes added to change the base colour, going through older books and catalogues yes that was once another option that was available.

Warm tone papers like the old Record Rapid & Portriga could be pushed and pulled in the print developer to give very different image tones and colours, this has absolutely nothing to do with the base colour. Many of the older warm tone paper developer formulae worked very well with old-style warm tone papers, they often required up to 4 times the normal exposure and could produce red-brown tones or even sepia just by development. This just isn't possible in the newer cadmium free versions of the same papers.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Ron, I think your missing out a whole fundamental aspect of the older warm tone papers. We aren't talking about pigments or dyes added to change the base colour, going through older books and catalogues yes that was once another option that was available.

Warm tone papers like the old Record Rapid & Portriga could be pushed and pulled in the print developer to give very different image tones and colours, this has absolutely nothing to do with the base colour. Many of the older warm tone paper developer formulae worked very well with old-style warm tone papers, they often required up to 4 times the normal exposure and could produce red-brown tones or even sepia just by development. This just isn't possible in the newer cadmium free versions of the same papers.

Ian

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Ian;

I know what a warm tone is Ian, and I didn't miss the point.

I did want you to know that both Agfa and Kodak used Cadmium Iodide as a contrast control agent rather than a toning agent. I know also that it was used in color paper as well where the toning was not needed.

I know that the warm tone paper formulas contained any one or a combination of several heavy metals that can no longer be used such as Mercury and Lead, and I know that these emulsions used a particular method of addition that is no longer in use. I also have looked up the Agfa and Kodak formulations and in addition to the warm paper tones, the same (or similar) pigment was added to the emulsion during the final prep stage.

Now, to be sure of ourselves, I also find that in Kodak and Agfa formulas, the Cadmium could be added in two portions. It was added both during the precipitation and just prior to coating. I have seen both done in one emulsion or either done in an emulsion. AFAIK, Cadmium only adjusted the contrast.

So, are you sure that it was not Lead, Mercury or Copper that might have done this job? I know that Cadmium was not used in Azo or Lupex to get the warm tone version.

PE

Of course there are papers and films I miss, however some of the papers and films available today are light years ahead.

The good old days just had a lot of products to wade through. You kept trying different things until one paper or film worked because it fit some quirk of your process. Then, Urethra! the magic bullet was found! It's an uninformed, un-enlightened, way to work.

Either the guy's skill set sucks, and he can't learn how to leverage other materials, or he's lazy and stuck in a rut, or he's a pretentious ass. I guess I'd have to read it myself to be sure.

I seem to recall reading about photographers in the past who lamented the loss of one thing or another -- and it was always something different than the last fellow was missing. Let's see if I can recall anything specific... Paul Strand (some particular paper -- Dassonville Black, perhaps?) August Sander (paper, again,) Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee (film and paper!) and I think there were others.

I'm not buying it. According to these folks, the world's been going to hell in a hand-basket for the best part of a century or more. I beg to disagree. What may be one person's disaster could be another's gift from heaven, and what is unusable to one may be a perfect fit for another. Let's take these pronouncements for what they are -- one person's opinions, not necessarily representative of reality to anyone else. In my own personal world, T-max and Tri-X and HP5 Plus are wonderful films and Ilford warmtone VF FB is a paper I can happily live with, as is Kentmere and possibly even Foma.

The sky is not falling.

Mike

Jerry Thirsty said:

FWIW, my favorite paper of the ones I tried was Agfa MCC 111, which of course was discontinued immediately after I discovered it. The Fomabrom Variant III is very close but seems harder to work with. I also settled on Polygrade V for a more neutral/cold tone, and of course that got axed as well. Lately I've been using Kentmere Fineprint and like it, which with my luck means that Harman will be pulling the plug on it very soon:rolleyes:. I've decided that I simply won't pick any more papers until I use up my leftover Agfa and Polygrade, then see who's still standing.

Thanks again,
JT

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Hmm, a disturbing trend. I think that I would greatly appreciate it if you would stay away from Iford Warmtone and some of the Kentmere papers, please. Why don't you try Bergger? I have no intention of using that one...

Mike

mjs said:

The sky is not falling.

Mike

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Indeed not. Despite the sad demise of Kodak Royal Bromesko Double-Weight Pearl, Johnsons' Unitol and May and Baker's Amfix, I don't find myself heading for the nearest bridge or opening the door of the gas oven.

Of all the posts on this topic, I think Jason Brunner summed up this harbinger of doom in two well-chosen words - "pretentious ass".

Steve

Steve, what do you mean Amfix is still available, it's just May & Baker became part of Champion.

Ian

Cadmium beware

Ron, we may be talking at cross purposes and perhaps it should be a different thread except - Roger Hick's comment that "In some ways, those who bemoan the passing of the ‘good old days’ are, for once, right." talking about the removal of Cadmium from Warm-tone papers.

We can only go by what Agfa and others paper manufacturers said at the time, but it was EEC (now the EU) directives that forced Agfa to reformulate Record Rapid (Portriga). There are many references to various chloro-bromide papers and the big differences between the current cadmium free versions and the older cadmium loaded versions, these can be found in books and articles as well as on the internet.

Agfa, Kentmere, Forte and Foma all used Cadmium in their warm-tone Chloro-bromide papers. Ilford didn't make a warm-tone paper for quite a time and by the time of Multigrade Warmtone's introduction the EU Cadmium directive was in place. Ektalure was the last Kodak paper to include cadmium, it was certainly available in the late 1980's and early 90's, I don't know if they eventually took out the cadmium before production ceased in the late 90's..

A few quotes:

Tim Rudman: "The Kentona, Art Classic, Tapestry, Luminos emulsions changed when EEC laws restricted the use of cadmium in the manufacturing process. Although these papers were fine art warm tone general papers they had unique properties when Lith printed and then selenium toned. Although the new cadmium-free versions of these papers both print and Lith print very well they are quite different to the old and no longer have the multi-colour potential . . . . . "

Roger Hicks: "Unfortunately for photographers, though fortunately for the environment, cadmium was dropped as an ingredient, and the best warm-tone papers (such as Forte Polywarmtone) were never the same again. In some ways, those who bemoan the passing of the ‘good old days’ are, for once, right."

On modern Warm tone papers . . . . . . .and certainly inferior to the Holy Grail of the old formula Cadmium ridden and highly environmentally friendly Agfa Record Rapid. . . . Ridden means on the back of or rather the paper was dependent on it's Cadmium content

I looked at some European warm tone Chloro-bromide emulsion formulae I have and and the Cadmium halide level varies from about 2% up to 6.5% of the total halides by weight, and is always added at the precipitation stage.

B&W Warm tone paper - From a 1969 Japanese Patent:
(A) solution (65° C.) Water 300 ml. Gelatine 10 g. Sodium chloride 9 g. Potassium bromide 8.7 g. Cadmium chloride 0.5 g. Citric acid 0.2 g. (B) solution (about 60° C.) Silver nitrate 25.0 g. Water 250 ml. (C) Gelatin . . . . . . . . . .
Approx 3% by weight of halides is a particularly significant level of Cadmium.

The major impact of the Cadmium removal is that the potential image colours are reduced. The newer papers are still excellent they just haven't the flexibility, but there are ways around this.

I've never looked into why the Cadmium's required but it's doesn't seem to be needed in slow speed chloro-bromide papers designed for Contact printing but it was used in projection speed Chloro-bromide enlarging papers.

Ian

Ian;

With all due respect to Tim and Roger, they were never (AFAIK) involved in production of emulsions.

The texts I have differ somewhat from what you say, but unfortunately they involve notes from unpublished course material in emulsion making at EK. Since I don't own this, but only have my notes, I won't publish it. But suffice it to say that there are differences of opinion on this.

PE

I have reviewed my notes on Brovira Black and Warm. They differ in that the warm tone paper used "Bleinitrat" which is Lead Nitrate. There is no Cadmium whatsoever. I have also reviewed Lupex and Azo warmtone. They do NOT use Cadmium salts in any way whatsoever.

PE

You missed my point, Lupex & Azo are Chloride contact papers, and not Chloro-Bromide enlarging speed papers, I know they don't use Cadmium.

The variants of Brovira were not specialist warmtone papers, I thing Record Rapid and Portriga have Gevaert roots rather than Agfa.

Roger Hick's and Tim Rudman may not be emulsion chemists but they certainly have by far enough experience to be able to make extremely well informed judgements and comments.

Ian

I agree, but without analytical results on the emulsion do we know they contain Cd?

In any event, I think that there is enough confusion to remove this to PM status. This is a specialist topic. And since my experience differs from yours, it can be due to formulation. I do know, as I said in the PMs that Cd will not work with AgCl and AgBr, only with AgBr/Cl, and there only to control contrast. That is my experience and education.

PE

One thing that there's no replacement of -- the grain of Kodak 2475 Recording Film. The speed, sure, but not the grain.

Yeah, Kodachrome 25 is a sad loss, but Ektachrome E100GX is darned nice film, cleaner colors for sure.

Ian Grant said:

Steve, what do you mean Amfix is still available, it's just May & Baker became part of Champion.

Ian

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Phew! If I HAD jumped off that bridge, I'd be feeling pretty sick now!

Steve