Question for Simon Galley (Ilford)???!!!

I recently developed a 35mm HP5 film, and found that messuring base + fog with my Heiland Splitgrade, this was 0,33. The develope before date is 2009. Admittingly this film has been through aerport control twice. Is this level of base + fog to high? I developed in Ilfotec HC 31+1 for 7 minutes. What level of base + fog should Ilford films give if fresh out of the factory? Should a question like this be asked on the Ilford website?

Thanks,

Jaap Jan Helder

04 June 2008

Jaap:

I have tested several Ilford films (in 35mm format) and the "film base + fog" has ranged from and optical density (OD) of 0.25 to 0.36. Your measured OD of 0.33 does not seem too high.

If you want to reduce the FB+F density as much as possible I recommend using fresh fix, and at lease 5 minutes in HCA. Both of these processes will strip as much of the "anti-halation" dyes as possible.

As for the "airport control", as long as the film is not placed in your "checked bags" you should be ok. Most films, except really fast films, will not see fogging until after 4 to 5 passes through the x-ray machine.

Regards,
Darwin

Examples of X-ray fog I've seen are usually pretty obvious exposed bands, not a subtle increase in base fog.

Developer choice can also affect base fog, and of course any light leaks in your film loading area will contribute to base fog, particularly with a fast film like HP5+. If light leaks are a factor, try loading in a changing bag or tent.

naaldvoerder said:

I recently developed a 35mm HP5 film, and found that messuring base + fog with my Heiland Splitgrade, this was 0,33. The develope before date is 2009. Admittingly this film has been through aerport control twice. Is this level of base + fog to high? I developed in Ilfotec HC 31+1 for 7 minutes. What level of base + fog should Ilford films give if fresh out of the factory? Should a question like this be asked on the Ilford website?

Thanks,

Jaap Jan Helder

Click to expand...

g'day naal

so how did the negs print? surely that is the crucial question

Ray

I just checked some HP5+ negs (developed ID11 1+1) and I get ~ 0.33 (Vis) too. 120 and LF films have lower fb+f - possibly because they do not have the anti light-piping dyes in the substrate. So, all seems well at your end as far as fb+f goes.

Cheers, Bob.

Jaap, back in October/November last year I shot HP5 that went through well over a dozen airport scans, in my carry-on luggage and the base fog is no different to my HP5 negs that haven't, the negatives all printed perfectly.

My Tmax 400 120 was scanned well over 18 times and that was all fine too. On some flights Chile-Peru for instance the hand luggage was scanned twice at Santiage airport and also on arrival at Lima.

Ian

I'm pretty sure that Ilford changed the emulsion (without saying) of the HP5+ (and Delta 3200). On my new 4x5" negatives (developped, as usual, in Moersch's Tanol), lots of black spots in the highlights!... Wolfgang thought it was because of the high alkalinity of Tanol (pH10,5 I think), but a friend of mine used D23 (+Borax) and had the same problem!

Dear Jaap,

Base fog does seem high for a film manufactured in 2004 or 2005, although well within our manufacturing tolerances, as always with ILFORD Photo products you can return it to us and we will check it out.

Dear Phillippe,

We have not changed the emulsion on HP5+ or on DELTA 3200

Kind Regards

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

OK! How can you explane this problem?

Dear Philippe,

I cannot till you return the negatives for examination by us: I have checked for any outstanding or known QC's ( Quality complaints ) regarding 'spots' : We have none whatsoever, on any film products. We would need to examine the negs ( usually done with our electron microscope ) and we will give you our analysis, we then check control samples and unexposed samples from the same parent roll your film ( we hold unexposed slittings for 6 years ) was finished from to see if we can replicate or find a similar issue to one you describe.

Kind Regards

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

As I said, Wolfgang Moersch had the same problem, with HP5+ and Delta 3200.

Dear Philippe

Well get him to send his back as well and we will check it out.....what more can I do !

Regards

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Dear Simon

I'll definitely will! I thought he had already be in touch with you.
The same problem happened to Jean-Claude Dal Cin, from Adaflex, and during a workshop: rather embarrassing for him.

Philippe you stated "lots of black spots in the highlights!... Wolfgang thought it was because of the high alkalinity of Tanol (pH10,5 I think)" perhaps you should wait and see what Ilford say after they've looked at the negatives.

It's extremely rare to get coating problems with modern films, over the past 40 years I've only ever seen 2 or 3 negatives where there was a coating problem, and that was with Adox film, and pin-holes. But it is quite well known that with some very alkali developers the shock of plunging negatives into stop-bath can cause these problems, I had this happen once back in the 70's. It affected the whole film, but as that came from a bulk reel of FP4 and no other films from the same 100" roll were affected it was quite obviously a processing problem.

Tanol may well have tanning effects but a high pH softens the emulsion quite significantly. It is often recommenced that you soak a print that's been fixed with a hardening fixer in a strong Carbonate solution specifically to soften the emulsion before toning, that's the effects of a high pH.

So it may not be the film, it could well be the developer, particularly as you say Wolfgang had it happen to two entirely different types of film.

Ian

Sorry, but this also happened to a friend using D23, which is not known for its high alkalinity -
The problem with Adox/Efke films is caused by a too acid stop bath, but at least it's said in the Fotoimpex catalogue (German version, I don't have the English one).
By the way, I noticed coating problems on 120 Delta 400 some years ago... and Michel Beaumont (Ilford France, at the time) never wanted to believe me, till I sacrified an unexposed film and looked at it through the light: the poor coating was visible!... This time I contacted Ilford again, and talked to a Monsieur Escoffier. When he asked the kind of soup I used, and I said "pyro", he asked me what that is!
I accept to take the risk of using "exotic" films (the late Forte, Foma, Efke, Rollei, Maco and so on) because I like sometimes the results, I know that it is sometimes risky and don't use them for professional jobs. BUT THEN I PAY HALF THE PRICE!!!
I simply think I won't buy Ilford anymore: it's especially enerving when you shoot 4x5 and 8x10, which was the case!

PS: forgive my rusty English.

Philippe Grunchec said:

Sorry, but this also happened to a friend using D23, which is not known for its high alkalinity -
The problem with Adox/Efke films is caused by a too acid stop bath, but at least it's said in the Fotoimpex catalogue (German version, I don't have the English one).
By the way, I noticed coating problems on 120 Delta 400 some years ago... and Michel Beaumont (Ilford France, at the time) never wanted to believe me, till I sacrified an unexposed film and looked at it through the light: the poor coating was visible!... This time I contacted Ilford again, and talked to a Monsieur Escoffier. When he asked the kind of soup I used, and I said "pyro", he asked me what that is!
I accept to take the risk of using "exotic" films (the late Forte, Foma, Efke, Rollei, Maco and so on) because I like sometimes the results, I know that it is sometimes risky and don't use them for professional jobs. BUT THEN I PAY HALF THE PRICE!!!
I simply think I won't buy Ilford anymore: it's especially enerving when you shoot 4x5 and 8x10, which was the case!

PS: forgive my rusty English.

Click to expand...

I can understand your frustration but surely you have to give Ilford the opportunity to examine the fault before making the decision not to use their film again. I can assure you that they are always strictly honest and if they find that the problem was in the manufacture of the film they will hold their hands up and admit it.

Simon R Galley said:

Dear Jaap,

Base fog does seem high for a film manufactured in 2004 or 2005, although well within our manufacturing tolerances, as always with ILFORD Photo products you can return it to us and we will check it out.



Kind Regards

Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Simon. I don't think there is much need for sending the film to Ilford. I, for one, am pretty sure that there is nothing wrong with the film, but my storage/processing needs improving. Actually that was the reason for posing my question. Could you indicate what the manufacturing tolerances are and what base + fog you would expect from well stored and well processed HP5? I would like to know what i should be aiming for. On the processing side, I have been using and reussing 1 liter of fix 1:4 for 4 minutes. This liter of fix has been used for no more than 10 filmes but over a period of several months with some highes room temperatures (24 C) in my darkroom this summer. Is this a likely reason for a highish b+f in your opinion?

On a side note, thanks for showing this level of customer support. It is a major factor in my resolution to keep using Ilford films as long as you lot keep making them.

Jaap Jan