Question for Simon from ILFORD HARMON

bobbysandstrom · May 6, 2006

Hi Simon. Let me start by saying THANK YOU for yours and your company's involvement and support in helping with keeping traditional photography alive!

My question is:

What are the chances of Ilford developing and making available more choices in colder tone Fiber papers with regards to surface finish, selenium tonability, and greater dmax?

Thanks

Oren Grad · May 6, 2006

My $0.02: if Harman offered an FB paper that was closer to the original MGFB - that is, more or less neutral toned, on a neutral base, with greater native Dmax and shorter toe than the current MGIVFB - I'd camp out at the factory loading dock so I could grab the first batch to come out the door.

ann · May 6, 2006

i am sure simon will get back to you, however, i believe he is at the conference so it might take a few days for him to check in and reply.

just an fyi

Lachlan Young · May 6, 2006

I would definitely be interested in a cool toned FB. Something like a VC version of Agfa Brovira would be ideal!

Lachlan

reellis67 · May 6, 2006

I'd be interested in this as well.

- Randy

jim appleyard · May 6, 2006

What I'd like is a Portriga/Brovira/Polymax/Ektalure/Charcoal R surface all-in-one!

bobbysandstrom · May 6, 2006

I think even with the newness of the digital knock down punch and all the consolidating that is going on in the industry that it won't take long to figure out (if it hasn't been figured already) that an "assortment" of high quality FB papers is sorely needed. I believe as the dust continues to settle it will become quite apparent just what everyone is missing and a company like Ilford will step up to fill the void. After all, the paper is one of the most important links in the quest for a beautiful print. That said, we need to dust ourselves off and make known what we really miss. I for one miss the elegant surface, high dmax and paper base color that Kodak polymax provided. I'd be happy with a cold tone version of forte WT as well. As beautiful as my 4800 prints on some of the newer inkjet papers look, there's just no beating the beauty of a Silver Gelatin FB print in my view! Silver Gelatin printing will remain an inimitable and highly desirable art form for decades to come and I believe the money spent on R&D for new materials will serve to garner greater profits. On the other hand, dissatisfaction with the materials will most likely provide another reason for people to jump ship and abandon this darkroom process. Unfortunately, for now, as I strive for excellence with my work I'm finding the weakest link in the materials chain is the paper! That hurts! My wish is for materials to continue evolving and by doing so make the analog process stand out even more. I'm truly optimistic. GO ILFORD!

Maine-iac · May 8, 2006

I've already written to Ilford requesting them to print their current Warmtone emulsion on a whiter paper base. I'l repeat that request here.

It's a great emulsion; I love the deep shadow detail it gives, but sometimes the off-white paper base makes it too warm for some images. If printed on a whiter base, it might be similar in look to Agfa's late-lamented MCC Classic, which I also loved for precisely the reason that it had great shadow detail and rich blacks of a warmer emulsion combined with a more neutral tone of a bright white base.

I switched from MGFBIV to Agfa when I discovered that I got so much better shadow detail and D-Max on the Agfa paper, which I attribute to the chloro-bromide emulsion. Ilford's current Warmtone gives equally good shadows and blacks, but with too warm an overall look for some subjects.

Larry

df cardwell · May 8, 2006

I'm not fond of Ilford warmtone, but use it because.... I can get it.

Oren Grad · May 8, 2006

I like the characteristic curve of MGFB Warmtone, but the yellowish base is a bit much sometimes - there's something about the mix of color and brighteners that, to my eye, almost ends up competing with the image for attention. I too would appreciate having that emulsion on a more neutral, less in-your-face paper base.

unregistered · May 8, 2006

Oren Grad said:
My $0.02: if Harman offered an FB paper that was closer to the original MGFB - that is, more or less neutral toned, on a neutral base, with greater native Dmax and shorter toe than the current MGIVFB - I'd camp out at the factory loading dock so I could grab the first batch to come out the door.

HEAR HEAR!!

Simon R Galley · May 10, 2006

Dear All,

Thanks for your question, I am very busy today having been away a week but will reply in detail tomorrow

Regards

Simon.

Les McLean · May 10, 2006

For those looking for a neutral to blue black I'd suggest trying Ilford's Multigrade VI developed in the new Ilford Cooltone developer. I have favoured Oriental Seagull graded paper in the past when I wanted cooltone images but when I tried the combination I mention here I was very pleasantly surprised by the results. However, I'd still like to see a true cooltone FIBRE paper.

Oren Grad · May 10, 2006

Les McLean said:
For those looking for a neutral to blue black I'd suggest trying Ilford's Multigrade VI developed in the new Ilford Cooltone developer.

Les, do the new developers (Cooltone, Warmtone) do anything for Dmax on MGIVFB?

Simon R Galley · May 11, 2006

COOLTONE FB Reply From ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology

Dear All,

Once again thanks for your ideas and product feedback:

Les in his reply on the thread mentioned the new ILFORD / HARMAN Cooltone and Warmtone developers, these were launched specifically for creative monochrome printers to be able to get different tonal effects with our ( and others ) papers, it was something, we thought, that could really quickly offer 'choice'.

They have been very successfull and the feedback has been very positive.

It is no secret we are doing R&D on a MULTIGRADE Cooltone FB product we are some way away, I will post on this site any further developments regarding this product.

As for 'whitening' the base of Warmtone, for all those who would welcome that, many would not, it would make it impossible to match previously made portfolios, which means that if we had a white base Warmtone it would have to be an 'addition' to the range. Now I guess you are thinking OK so why dont you do it, you have customers asking...well its simple, base quantities, we would need a new FB base and the minimum commitment alone would not make it viable to produce I am afraid.

I will speak to our R&D people about chemically or optically brightening the base, but that tends to influence the coatings as well, so I will come back to you when I have debated the issue with them.

In addition we are launching our own selenium toner in the summer, initial tests look to a good increase in density without purpling, so we are excited about the launch, further toners will be launched in 2007.

I am sure you understand it is very difficult to address all tastes ( in fact its impossible ) and with many 'favourite' papers no longer available people are searching for similar products, our range is the biggest by far, and we cannot 'sub divide' the range into a host of different products it will just not make business sense.

I hope this answers your questions :

Kind Regards

Simon.

Jim Noel · May 11, 2006

Simon,
Thank you for the very complete answer.
I agree it is absolutely impossible to satisfy everyone, or even most people.

The final answer is that if we are to continue in the SIlver Gelatin field we must accept what is desirable to the most people. As someone else has said,"I use it because it is available."

I look forward to being able to obtain your new toners locally in Southern California.

Thanks for yout efforts.
Jim

unregistered · May 11, 2006

As a former occasional tester of Ilford pre-production papers, I REALLY wish you'd bring back the FB version before this current IV version. If that ever happens, I'd be buying you paper again.

FrankB · May 11, 2006

Simon,

Just a quick line to say, 'Thanks!'.

It's excellent to have someone from a major manufacturer that listens, considers and responds thoughtfully and promptly.

If only others would do as much.

All the best,

Frank

jp80874 · May 12, 2006

Simon,

Thank you and Ilford for sponsoring the APUG conference and Les workshop. I am trying some of your products. I decided to try the cool tone and warm tone developers. I have been using the Multi grade developer but with Kentmeer paper.
I will try your Multi grade paper as well.

As you may know there is a shipping problem that may inhibit many of us from trying the cool and warm tone products. B&H in New York says that they may not ship either product. The products may be purchased for local pickup, but for me that is an eight hour one way drive and several tanks of gasoline. My understanding is that these products may not be sent by mail, FedEx or UPS. They can be shipped by truck, but I can not use enough to make that practical.

I tried the professional store of the largest retail photo supply chain in northern Ohio, Dodd Camera. They sell Ilford photo papers and chemicals, but they had not heard of either developer. After much conversation they said they would try a case of each if I would prepay for a liter of each.

Is there some way your chemists or label writers can get around the shipping restrictions? Can you, Les and Tim make special deliveries to the Powers darkroom in downtown Bath, Ohio? Dinner is at 7:00 PM.

John Powers

srs5694 · May 12, 2006

jp80874 said:
As you may know there is a shipping problem that may inhibit many of us from trying the cool and warm tone products. B&H in New York says that they may not ship either product.

B&H seems to be very conservative about what they'll ship; as near as I can tell, if it's restricted from air transport, they won't ship it by air or ground, and they err on the side of caution when they aren't sure about whether something can be shipped by air. The end result is that those not in the NYC area simply can't buy a lot of things from B&H.

When I want something that B&H won't ship, I usually buy from Dead Link Removed or Freestyle. I just checked, and it seems Adorama doesn't (yet?) carry the new Ilford paper developers, but Freestyle does. There's no comment on Freestyle's site about shipping restrictions, so they'll probably ship it by ground or air, but I've not tried buying this product from them so I can't be positive of that. Freestyle stocks a few things that B&H doesn't, too, so it's worth perusing their site. The downside to buying from Freestyle, for those of us on the US East Coast, is that they're in California, so shipping takes longer than it does from B&H or Adorama, both of which are in New York City.

PhotoJim · May 12, 2006

Interestingly, I'm about as far from Freestyle as I am from B&H, but my orders get here from Freestyle much quicker. I don't generally mind (when I want things from either, the prices are great or the availability here is nonexistent) but it is interesting, nonetheless.

bobbysandstrom · May 15, 2006

Simon: A selenium toner with a good increase in density without purpling for MGIV FB? That, I believe, would be a major hit with a lot of people!

Question for Simon from ILFORD HARMON

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