Question for Emulsion Engineers

Stephen Frizza · Jan 19, 2013

I once heard Reference to an emulsion which was coated on glass and once developed was clear and colorless to the human eye yet under ultra violet light produced an image in full color. I suspect it was an obscure Kodak experiment that never got further then R&D can anyone shed any light on this? or know of any similar themed experiments in emulsion and imagine making?

Photo Engineer · Jan 19, 2013

Pretty close Steve.

It was like a dye transfer process in which no dyes were used. Instead, complexes of heavy metals were transferred imagewise onto a sheet of mordant which continued to look just like a blank sheet of paper. When hit with UV, the pigments fluoresced and gave a brilliant color image.

I saw exactly one example, and it was indeed an R&D experiment that never went further than this one demo.

PE

Stephen Frizza · Jan 19, 2013

is there any published patents with this R&D? I am wanting to bring this obscure process to life.

Photo Engineer · Jan 19, 2013

Steve;

I know who did the work, and I just did a patent search and turned up nothing even close. Well, yes, kind of. He did some work on UV absorbers in that time frame, but that is a total miss. So, I would guess it was never patented or published unless as a Defensive Publication or something like that.

PE

AgX · Jan 19, 2013

In modern printing luminescent dyes are used. Either to obscure information or to enhance the image quality.

AgX · Jan 19, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
When hit with UV, the pigments fluoresced and gave a brilliant color image.

"Brilliant colour" does not necessarily refer to a natural colour image.

Photo Engineer · Jan 19, 2013

Alright, "Natural Color" then.

These dyes were colorless until exposed to UV and then they fluoresced C/M/Y and the image was truly unique and spectacular. It was a "Kodak girl" photo with a MacBeth color checker in the image. Nothing spectacular about the scene, it was the imaging method that was unique.

PE

AgX · Jan 19, 2013

So, a natural colour image it was? I'm surprised. Such experiment went aside my attention so far.

Prof_Pixel · Jan 19, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
So, I would guess it was never patented or published unless as a Defensive Publication or something like that.

Ron, Did you check RESEARCH DISCLOSURES? A lot of things in the '70s got published there by Kodak.

Photo Engineer · Jan 19, 2013

I have searched patents, Fred. I have not gotten to RDs or Defensive Publications which are rather harder to access and search. It really does not matter as these fluorescent compounds were complexes of things such as Europium and Yttrium or something like that. I had the information at one time, but I did not want to do any work on it due to the cost.

BTW, good seeing you yesterday Fred. Again, sorry I forgot to call you or E-mail you.

PE

Stephen Frizza · Jan 20, 2013

Do you have any suggestions where I may be able to find out a little bit more about this process? or are there any similar processes you know of?

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2013

Research Disclosures and Defensive Publications are the only areas I could suggest. Maybe the SPSE Journal. The time period would be from about 1970 - 1980. I could find nothing after reading patents until my eyes bled!

Sorry

PE

Prof_Pixel · Jan 20, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
The time period would be from about 1870 - 1980.

I think you mean 1970 - 1980

Bob Carnie · Jan 20, 2013

No Ron goes back that far.

Prof_Pixel said:
I think you mean 1970 - 1980

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2013

Do you still want to visit here Bob? I can be made unavailable if you insult me enough!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys, consider the correction made!

PE

Bob Carnie · Jan 20, 2013

Yes Papa San I do want to see you and Chris and all the good things you folks are up to in Rochester.
I humbly apologize.

Photo Engineer said:
Do you still want to visit here Bob? I can be made unavailable if you insult me enough!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys, consider the correction made!

PE

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2013

Papa San? Hmmpf, I think Sensei might be better, but then I am a bit above myself!

See you soon Bob.

PE

c.d.ewen · Jan 20, 2013

Sensei....Geheimrat.....depends on your Orientation

Charley

railwayman3 · Jan 20, 2013

Photo Engineer said:
I have searched patents, Fred. I have not gotten to RDs or Defensive Publications which are rather harder to access and search. It really does not matter as these fluorescent compounds were complexes of things such as Europium and Yttrium or something like that. I had the information at one time, but I did not want to do any work on it due to the cost.

PE

Presumably some connection with the "rare earth" elements used in things like color tv and mobile phone displays?

falotico · Jan 20, 2013

It is wonderful to have access to the experts from Kodak. This fluorescent image that PE mentions would have been fascinating to see. If it was a dye-transfer image then Frizza could acquire a dye-transfer relief matrix some way and simply use it to transfer a fluorescent dye onto print paper. You could try it with fluorescein dye which can be bought online in various forms. Fluorescein looks like it is a basic dye so it might require a mordant on the print paper in order to transfer well--perhaps chrome alum? Other fluorescent dyes include Rhodamine which comes in two forms, one of which is available in art stores. You might also use a dye-toning method to create a photographic image in fluorescent dye, cf. J.S. Friedman "History of Color Photography." If Frizza is really interested in fluorescent images he might find it easier to start off with the materials commercially available than try to find compounds made of rare earths.

Try drawing with the dyes also. This will give you a sense of what the fluorescent images look like.

removed account4 · Jan 20, 2013

too bad steve couldn't make with nobel gasses ( under pressure and in a vacuum ) and phosphoric dyes
and electrified to make holographic light images, like brilliant lit kirilian / thoughtograms

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2013

IDK what the dyes were. I do know that they were rare earth complexes that were colorless under visible illumination. There was a tiny amount of image due to ambient UV, but when we turned out the room lights and turned on a fluorescent lamp directed towards the paper, it came alive like a flat screen TV in an age well before such devices.

At that time, we were working on metallized dyes for image stability and did get a whole series that were based on nickle complexes which is another story completely. In this case, a magenta dye would turn into a cyan dye upon contact with a mordant and a nickle salt. Thus, we proved that magenta did not exist!

PE

CMB · Jan 20, 2013

Adrian LeRoy, who developed the "Lerochrome" one-shot color camera in 1938, did quite a bit of work with "secret" map processes that used fluorescent and phosphorescent color emulsions that were "invisible" unless exposed to UV light. According to the 1946 Industrial Research Laboratories of America , his research included the "subtraction of the visible spectrum colors from uranium nitrate and the application of color photography".

BTW His "Leriomystic" solution, which promised "absolutely invisible pictures", was an early(1927) attempt to commercialize his research in this area.

Charles

Photo Engineer · Jan 20, 2013

Photos based on Uranyl salts were easily detected by Geiger counters. These are not.

IDK what the history of any of this was as I did not follow up.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jan 20, 2013

Some young people uses fluorescent dyes to tattoo themselves. I heard one guy ordered a skull tattoo to his face and when he goes to disco , everyone sees the skull on his face under ultraviolet light

Question for Emulsion Engineers

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