Question about the new airport CT scanners: does it affect film purchases?

B&Wpositive · Feb 23, 2020

I didn't want this question to get lost in that huge thread, so here goes:

If one were to purchase film that had to travel from one US coast to the other, how much of a chance is there of it getting ruined by x-rays either by an airport CT scanner similar to the ones used on passenger baggage, or other airport devices that parcels go through, or by the postal service or other shipping service?

Additionally, what about ordering film from an overseas seller to the US?

wiltw · Feb 24, 2020

Jury is out. Some folks have taken film, had it scanned by one of the newest carry-on baggage scanners and the film is WRECKED..
Some folks have taken film, had it scanned at an airport known to have the newest carry-on baggage scanners and the film is FINE.

That much we know. But then...Why, going thru Amsterdam (where they use the new CT scanners on carry-on bags) does some film come out with clear signs of extraneous exposure to ionizing radiation, but other times it comes through fine?!

How does a movie filming crew shooting internationally send their film back for processing in the US (or other first world country) when they have to shoot in a third world country with questionable processing (or no processing) for movie film? (All the digital movie shooting is interfering with obtaining this insight!)

We have little insight about how postal services like USPS and other countries, or how private shipping like DHL or Fedex or UPS handle the issue of freight safety from terrorist activities.

Folks, keep this in mind: No one knowledgable wants to speak out, out of precaution that terrorists learn enough to circumvent current security processes!

It is all a huge shot in the dark about how to deal with the issue if you shoot with film...
The uncertainty is one of the things keeping terrorists from figuring out a reliable means to defeat the security and send terrorist packages!

B&Wpositive · Feb 24, 2020

If we truly don't know yet, then how can anyone purchase film? For example if I order from Freestyle now, or an eBay seller on the West Coast, and my film gets ruined in transit on the way to the East Coast, and I have paid big money for it, then what?

That is the situation I'm hoping we will avoid. I'm about to make such a purchase but now am wondering if the days of buying film from a farther away location are over due to the new x-ray machines. And even if you buy close to home, how do you know it didn't go through such machines to get to where you bought it from?

See the issue? People are going to be afraid to buy film now, even if they aren't traveling with it. There has to be some assurance.

Has anyone had film ruined when you ordered it yet? How far away did you order it from?

As far as preventing bad actors, there is no reason everything we ship needs to go through the new CT scanning. There are other methods of screening packages. I don't know what they are and they probably should not be discussed, but there are other methods in use. CT scanning was not always used.

AgX · Feb 24, 2020

wiltw said:
We have little insight about how postal services like USPS and other countries, or how private shipping like DHL or Fedex or UPS handle the issue of freight safety from terrorist activities.

Folks, keep this in mind: No one knowledgable wants to speak out, out of precaution that terrorists learn enough to circumvent current security processes!

As I said in that other thread:
X-ray scanning is not just a matter of airplane-security, but of contrabande too.

B&Wpositive · Feb 24, 2020

So, what do you do?

Make the purchase anyway and hope the film doesn't get ruined, but accept that the money is down the drain and the photos are ruined if it does end up having been damaged in transit?

This type of thing has the ability to kill film photography.

Agulliver · Feb 24, 2020

Purchasing film from a shop/online dealer who uses a reputable postal service or reputable courier service should not be affected. Freight is handled differently to personal baggage.

As others have said, details are not public knowledge for obvious reasons.

Has anyone read/heard a credible report of film being ruined by X-rays in transit from a professional vendor to a customer?

AgX · Feb 24, 2020

Agulliver said:
Purchasing film from a shop/online dealer who uses a reputable postal service or reputable courier service should not be affected.

The customs authorities interfere at "reputable" postal services too. Those authorities would be useless if they would not. (Otherwise just send your contrabande by reputabel postal service and you would trick-out the customs...)

(However in Germany to my experiences they do it in such a nasty way and harmful way that I refrain if possible from non-EU import at least.)

pentaxuser · Feb 24, 2020

AgX said:
(However in Germany to my experiences they do it in such a nasty way and harmful way that I refrain if possible from non-EU import at least.)

Then let's hope that good sense prevails in the post Brexit negotiations and that Customs authorities regard the U.K. as being part of the EU and we do the same in the other direction

pentaxuser

Agulliver · Feb 24, 2020

People purchase photographic material from around the world every day. Have we ever heard of anyone getting it fogged by import X-rays?

Businesses send photographic material around the world regularly, for example Fuji sending ACROS II to Harman in the UK for finishing, Kodak sending film all around the world from Rochester, NY. Have we ever heard of any such shipment being damaged by X-Rays?

As Henning says, there are different arrangements compared to what you and I as individuals encounter when we travel through an airport

Henning Serger · Feb 24, 2020

Agulliver said:
People purchase photographic material from around the world every day. Have we ever heard of anyone getting it fogged by import X-rays?

Businesses send photographic material around the world regularly, for example Fuji sending ACROS II to Harman in the UK for finishing, Kodak sending film all around the world from Rochester, NY. Have we ever heard of any such shipment being damaged by X-Rays?

As Henning says, there are different arrangements compared to what you and I as individuals encounter when we travel through an airport

Exactly.
Shipping film by air cargo is normal, standard daily business. The practise is optimised for film business procedures and different to passenger flights.
Film distributors ship film by air cargo permanently.
And Kodak is currently shipping millions of film by air cargo instead of container ships. They do that because of the huge backorders, to get the films much faster into the distribution channels and in the hands of the customers.

Best regards,
Henning

Wallendo · Feb 24, 2020

The new scanners haven't changed my purchases ... at least not yet.

I routinely have film shipped from either New York (B&H) or California (Freestyle). Since these films are not being carried on a plane by a "film mule", the new scanners don't seem to be an issue and likely won't be in the future.
When I buy film manufactured overseas, I have never had a roll damaged. I do generally buy my Fuji, Ilford, and Foma from US retailers. I rarely have film shipped from overseas from private sellers due to concerns about shipping.

The only issue I have ever had was print-through on some Ektar film which Kodak blamed on storage conditions of some sort.

cmacd123 · Feb 24, 2020

two separate issues. CT scans for carry on baggage have been identified by Kodak, Fuji, and Ilford as damaging film - you will need to insist on hand inpections or buy film at you destination. this also means using a lab to process your shots before you leave your destination.

Commercial shipments must be arranged to avoid Xray or CT inspections, this may require that sellers se bonded warehouses where the shipment is certified as to contents and transported under controled conditions

And yes, this makes for another issue that film photography may not be taken into consideration.

Kodak Alaris now has PDF files of NEW stickers for use when shipping film.

link is on THIS page: -> https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/film

AgX · Feb 25, 2020

Agulliver said:
People purchase photographic material from around the world every day. Have we ever heard of anyone getting it fogged by import X-rays?

You have to consider the different circumstances:

-) baggage in passenger planes
Here plane-security is the aim of utmost importance. And thus each and every piece of baggage is controlled. Due to having to control a lot of items within short time, the X-raying approach has been decided for.

-) general shipments (parcels)
Here the defence of contrabande, tax and duty evasion is the aim. Here sampling seem the common approach. Resulting in more availabe time per item, which thus can be opened, unpacked, checked, repacked and sealed.
However here too X-ray scanning is applied. In Germany for instance since decades, and even documented by tv.

The algorithms applied to which parcel/letter is picked and when a parcel is opened or X-rayed we only can speculate. They may be favourable for film shipments of our members.

A retailer cannot provide a save transport in this meaning. The same time he has not much reason to make failed cases public.

BrianShaw · Feb 25, 2020

AgX said:
-) general shipments (parcels)
Here the defence of contrabande, tax and duty evasion is the aim. Here sampling seem the common approach. Resulting in more availabe time per item, which thus can be opened, unpacked, checked, repacked and sealed.
However here too X-ray scanning is applied. In Germany for instance since decades, and even documented by tv.

I recently saw on the internet an authoritative-looking document that presented a near-term future strategy for bulk container scanning at US ports. Of course, I can’t seem to find it again... but it talked of sampling, at a container level, and the use of existing technologies including drive-thru x-ray. The report did not specific state “CT” but wrote of “3-D imaging”. Their major concern was detection of weapons and drug contraband... with a heavy emphasis on a throughput analysis. There’s a lot of cargo in a major port making screening a humongous chore.

AgX · Feb 25, 2020

Drive-through or device passing the truck approaches have been applied for years. Typically at harbours, border stations. They are to save personnnel time for unloading (same as with luggage) or to detect hideouts. Though likely no kind of film shipping will undergo this type of control.

B&Wpositive · Feb 25, 2020

cmacd123 said:
two separate issues. CT scans for carry on baggage have been identified by Kodak, Fuji, and Ilford as damaging film - you will need to insist on hand inpections or buy film at you destination. this also means using a lab to process your shots before you leave your destination.

Commercial shipments must be arranged to avoid Xray or CT inspections, this may require that sellers se bonded warehouses where the shipment is certified as to contents and transported under controled conditions

And yes, this makes for another issue that film photography may not be taken into consideration.

Kodak Alaris now has PDF files of NEW stickers for use when shipping film.

link is on THIS page: -> https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/film

I saw those stickers. There were also older ones a while back from Kodak.

I was just talking with an ebay seller who sells film as a small business and uses first class mail. He said that when he asked at his local post office, they told him that if anything, the labels most likely increase the chance of a package being x-rayed by the postal service because some bad actors use them, but that ordinarily, there is less chance of x-ray being done as you get further from big cities. This is not good; as film users, we're trying to prevent damage, not increase the chance of it. I'd urge anyone concerned to talk with your local postmaster to get your questions answered. I know I will be. We need to know what the best practices are.

B&Wpositive · Feb 25, 2020

AgX said:
Drive-through or device passing the truck approaches have been applied for years. Typically at harbours, border stations. They are to save personnnel time for unloading (same as with luggage) or to detect hideouts. Though likely no kind of film shipping will undergo this type of control.

Drive through, as in the whole truck (including the driver) gets x-rayed...? That does not sound good for the driver.

AgX · Feb 25, 2020

It has been introduced in Germany in the 80's and still is applied. Here a photo of a british installation:
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/03/25/04/328A7D8F00000578-0-image-a-71_1458878792822.jpg

pentaxuser · Feb 26, 2020

AgX said:
It has been introduced in Germany in the 80's and still is applied. Here a photo of a british installation:
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/03/25/04/328A7D8F00000578-0-image-a-71_1458878792822.jpg

So that's 30-40 years now. Any truck drivers in Germany glowing in the dark yet: ( just some British dark humour )

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Feb 26, 2020

AgX said:
Though likely no kind of film shipping will undergo this type of control.

Then how does film get transported over long distances and between countries, if not in bulk containers or trucks?

BrianShaw · Feb 26, 2020

pentaxuser said:
So that's 30-40 years now. Any truck drivers in Germany glowing in the dark yet: ( just some British dark humour )

pentaxuser

I must have some residual British humour in me because that was my first thought. But on second thought I wondered why I read nothing on human protection... effects like leukemia and other cancers immediate to mind. I’m sure “they” took that into account but I know for sure that I wouldn’t be willing to drive those trucks!

AgX · Feb 26, 2020

BrianShaw said:
Then how does film get transported over long distances and between countries, if not in bulk containers or trucks?

Of course film is transported as far as possible bulk. In containers (refridgerated if needed). What I wanted to indicate was that these containers are not not X-rayed.

BrianShaw · Feb 26, 2020

AgX said:
Of course film is transported as far as possible bulk. In containers (refridgerated if needed). What I wanted to indicate was that these containers are not not X-rayed.

Why aren’t they Subject to random screening like all other cargo? Bonded or do they have “do not x-ray” stickers on them?

AgX · Feb 26, 2020

Customs authorities have moved part of their activities from borders to manufacturers.

BrianShaw · Feb 26, 2020

AgX said:
Customs authorities have moved part of their activities from borders to manufacturers.

Okay, that makes logical sense... Bonded, trusted, on-site inspector/inspection.

Question about the new airport CT scanners: does it affect film purchases?

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