Question about storage of Xtol solution

removedacct1 · Jan 8, 2015

In my forty odd years of working with traditional materials, I have not tried certain films and chemicals - having decided long ago that I had settled on "a look" that suited me. Recently, I have decided to expand my materials vocabulary and so I am going to spend some time trying out Xtol instead of my old standard: D76.
I have researched this formula (here and elsewhere) and its clear that this developer will oxidize rapidly unless oxygen is excluded from the storage container. I knew that bit, so - OK. But I have read a few accounts that state that Xtol should be stored only in brown glass bottles - NOT any type of plastic. I had planned on storing it in those collapsible brown plastic chemical storage containers - you know the ones - they accordion to exclude all air as you empty them through usage. Its how I have stored D76 all these years.

So my question is this: Is the "accordion bottle" type container NOT suitable if I expect to use the Xtol within 3 or 4 months at most? I'd rather not have to source glass containers if its not essential. (They solve one problem but introduce the issue of oxygen in the container as the developer gets used) Thank you.

Paul

samcomet · Jan 8, 2015

Paul - FWIW I've been using Xtol for quite a few years now and always mix up a 5 gallon batch and decant it into 3 x 1 litre collapsable accordion brown plastic containers (I use the remainder for my first tank of film). After squashing down the bottle, I also place a bit of plastic wrap around the mouth of the bottle before screwing on the lid (making it more air-tight). I wait until I have enough film to use up most of the 1 litre container and process and discard the rest of that bottle. The bottles are stored in a fridge when not in use, and I try to use the complete set of 5 litres within 60 to 90 days of initial mix. All in all I can honestly say that I have experienced NO discernible problems. Hope this helps you to figure out your workflow. Cheers, Sam

Nige · Jan 8, 2015

I use clear glass (ex fruit juice, so you get to drink the juice first!) stored in a cupboard in my darkroom (so it gets to see nearly no light) and due to a lack of film developing I have used year old 'stock' which was fine. I record when I mixed it.

I have/had (think I threw them out) a set of those accordion bottles and I've given up using them (used to use for mixed print chemicals) due to them expanding between printing sessions regardless of what I did to the lid. Some might be better than others but I wouldn't buy again (although I did use mine for many years)

Sirius Glass · Jan 8, 2015

XTOL does not care about the color of the bottle nor whether or not it is glass or an accordion as long as it does not leak. Rumors about XTOL not liking one wearing pink have also proven to be false! They are just that, rumors.

Arvee · Jan 8, 2015

Mixing 5L at a time is a bit of a hassle. I have been mixing Xtol in 2.5 liters (I dilute 1+1 at time of development to make stock solution) and I get 500ml amber plastic bottles (5) and 1-250ml and 1-125ml at my local pharmacy. The original 2.5L goes into the 5-500ml bottles at the outset.

No matter how much I need for a developing session, I decant the remainder into the smaller bottles and leave no air space. Since doing this I have had no failures due to oxidation. Easy peasy, no storage issues with 5L of developer, no partially full bottles that will go bad per Kodak's shelf life schedule.

SMBooth · Jan 8, 2015

I brought a 5 litre water bladder (with water) and use that, the air doesnt get into the bladder. Work great.

bdial · Jan 8, 2015

I use Xtol in a replenishment scheme. My working solution lives in a 2 L Jobo plastic bottle, and the replenishment stock lives in a mixture of glass and Jobo plastic bottles. I keep the working solution at the very top of the bottle neck, and I purge any open space in the replenishment bottles with nitrogen.
My last batch lasted for about 16 months and the main reason I retired it was that it was growing things.
FWIW, I mix it with distilled water, as I know I have a fair amount of iron in my tap (well) water.

polyglot · Jan 8, 2015

Dead Link Removed.

Accordion bottles are not suitable for storing developer because they are made of LDPE, which is quite permeable to oxygen. They're also basically impossible to wash out properly.

Go buy a 5L or 10L bag-in-box container of spring water, they're made of metallised mylar which is pretty impermeable. Make your developer stock up using the water and store it back in the mylar bag. It will keep for about a year that way, and is super-convenient to use because you have developer stock on-tap with no need to open/close bottles, and the bag collapses as you consume the developer, so no oxygen gets in there at all.

To further help with longevity, you want to reduce the quantity of oxygen dissolved in the water you make the stock with. Boil it first to drive out most of the dissolved gas and mix up the stock once the water has cooled to about 30C. You can also mix a 5L pack of Xtol into just 4L of water for a slightly more-concentrated stock and therefore 20% less available oxygen in solution; just make sure you remember that it is more-concentrated when you go to dilute and use it (instead of 100mL stock plus 100mL water, you use 80mL stock plus 120mL water per roll of film at 1+1).

tkamiya · Jan 8, 2015

I went through this myself....

I do not use glass. I use plastic. BUT.... type of plastic matters. One with plastic code 2 at the bottom works fine for me. It keeps full 6 months and usually longer. I don't use accordion type. I have lots of small bottles and store mine "per serving" size. That way, exposure to oxygen is once when I mix it and one more time when I use it.

Sirius Glass · Jan 8, 2015

SMBooth said:
I brought a 5 litre water bladder (with water) and use that, the air doesnt get into the bladder. Work great.

I wish my bladder held five liters.

Bruce Osgood · Jan 8, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
XTOL does not care about the color of the bottle nor whether or not it is glass or an accordion as long as it does not leak. Rumors about XTOL not liking one wearing pink have also proven to be false! They are just that, rumors.

This is all true. However, before I came to agree with this I bought 24 4-Oz brown bottles that I decanted the Stock Xtol into. What didn't fit I used the 1/2 gallon brown bottles and prepared the working solution as needed and reserved the 4-Oz.

When I ran through the 1/2 gallon I had 24 bottles of 4+ Oz. stock that when put into a beaker and then refilled the bottle with water gave the 260 mL (1+1) I need for one Jobo tank and up to 6 4x5 negs.

So, while what Sirius Glass says is true I will keep my 24 brown bottles full and very convenient. I look at the 24 filled bottles and smile, I feel so rich.

Sirius Glass · Jan 8, 2015

I found that some of the accordion bottles likes to develop air leaks. I now have one non-air leaking one liter accordion bottle and four one liter Jobo bottles.

Neal · Jan 9, 2015

Dear Paul,

I have stored Xtol in accordion bottles for over a year without issue. However, I have only done that once. I abandoned the accordion style bottles for all chemicals only because they would start falling over as they got older and they seemed hard to clean. If you already have some accordion bottles, use them. If it turns out you like Xtol, you will use it up far more quickly than it will go off and you will find a storage method that works for you. If it turns out you don't like it, the long term storage problem solves itself. I find an 8oz bottle works nicely using Jobo rotary tanks and a 1+1 dilution. I don't know if this has helped my success with Xtol, but I mix all my chemicals (as well as make coffee with) with distilled water.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

mklw1954 · Jan 9, 2015

5 liters is an odd volume but I make up all 5 liters at one time in a 5 liter glass wine bottle (and you get to drink the wine first). I then use 5 1-liter PET plastic bottles (from non-flavored seltzer water), squeeze to eliminate air, and store in the dark (a plastic tote, where all my chemicals are stored). PET is an excellent oxygen barrier and I have never had a problem. Kodak's data sheet indicates fully stoppered bottles are good for 6 months.

removedacct1 · Jan 9, 2015

Thank you all for these suggestions and warnings.
I already have a one gallon accordion style photo chemistry storage bottle which is fairly new and has been used to store D76 without any apparent problems. (I have used D76 from this container up to 4.5 months from preparation date and it performs as expected.) I daresay I will go through this first batch of Xtol in less than that time, since this is going to be used with a variety of emulsions and in A/B comparison tests, to gauge its performance. While I understand that the accordion style plastic bottles are not ideal, I'm going to go ahead and use what I already have and worry about acquiring a set of smaller glass bottle for future storage needs. The accordion bottle I have has effectively maintained its air seal at all times (so far), so I trust it to continue doing so.

polyglot said:
Accordion bottles are not suitable for storing developer because they are made of LDPE, which is quite permeable to oxygen. They're also basically impossible to wash out properly.

Go buy a 5L or 10L bag-in-box container of spring water, they're made of metallised mylar which is pretty impermeable. Make your developer stock up using the water and store it back in the mylar bag.

I have never seen these mylar water containers here in the US, so I don't think this is an option for me, but thanks.

In the future, when storing Xtol in smaller (perhaps 16 oz?) glass bottles, I would consider mixing it double strength (in 2.5 liters instead of 5 liters) to make it a little more storage friendly. I've read accounts of people doing this, but I'd like to know if any of you have done this, and did it create problems? I see Fred states that he has done this, but I wonder if anyone else has?

Would these be appropriate? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00685737E/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Again, thanks.
Paul

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jan 9, 2015

After watching a gallon of D76 turn into gunk in plastic bottles (ones sold for darkroom use) I never used them again.

You can get all size of brown glass bottles from USPlastic.com - super cheap. When I was using XTOL I would decant into 500mL bottles and went well past one year before using it all up. Never had any problems. We spend so much time and money trying to make a great image. Glass bottles are a cheap insurance policy, worth every penny.

Green mineral water bottles are easy to find and make a great substitute.

Jim Noel · Jan 9, 2015

paulbarden said:
In my forty odd years of working with traditional materials, I have not tried certain films and chemicals - having decided long ago that I had settled on "a look" that suited me. Recently, I have decided to expand my materials vocabulary and so I am going to spend some time trying out Xtol instead of my old standard: D76.
I have researched this formula (here and elsewhere) and its clear that this developer will oxidize rapidly unless oxygen is excluded from the storage container. I knew that bit, so - OK. But I have read a few accounts that state that Xtol should be stored only in brown glass bottles - NOT any type of plastic. I had planned on storing it in those collapsible brown plastic chemical storage containers - you know the ones - they accordion to exclude all air as you empty them through usage. Its how I have stored D76 all these years.

So my question is this: Is the "accordion bottle" type container NOT suitable if I expect to use the Xtol within 3 or 4 months at most? I'd rather not have to source glass containers if its not essential. (They solve one problem but introduce the issue of oxygen in the container as the developer gets used) Thank you.

Paul

Those accordion style plastic bottles are as poor as all other plastic when it comes to preventing osmosis.I don't allow plastic bottles in my darkroom.

removedacct1 · Jan 9, 2015

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
After watching a gallon of D76 turn into gunk in plastic bottles (ones sold for darkroom use) I never used them again.

You can get all size of brown glass bottles from USPlastic.com - super cheap. When I was using XTOL I would decant into 500mL bottles and went well past one year before using it all up. Never had any problems. We spend so much time and money trying to make a great image. Glass bottles are a cheap insurance policy, worth every penny.

Green mineral water bottles are easy to find and make a great substitute.

Noted, and thanks. Did you look at the link I included above, for the Amazon offering? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00685737E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER (The $38 includes the shipping cost, obviously, so by the time I bought from the supplier you listed, the cost would end up being very close, I'm sure)

removedacct1 · Jan 9, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
Mix it as directed -5 liters. A stronger concentration will not necessarily make it more "storage friendly", and while Xtol is buffered, I'd generally not suggest mixing formulas into the wrong volume of water. It is not good mixing practice. In addition, you want to get parts A and B into solution quickly, and dissolution of part A (containing Dimezone-S) could take longer in a smaller volume of water even though the solution is alkaline.

Bottom line - stick to the directions. All this other stuff is just silliness.

Thank you Michael. I only asked about the half-volume idea to make it easier to store the developer, not with any preconceived notions about storage longevity ;-)

Bruce Osgood · Jan 9, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
Bottom line - stick to the directions. All this other stuff is just silliness.

It is just that simple.

MattKing · Jan 9, 2015

I would agree with Michael's suggestion ("follow the rules") but would also suggest that if you cannot easily work with a 5 litre container, a 4 litre (or even 4 US quart) container will probably not be fundamentally different in use.

You know, like the ones you can buy distilled water in.

I would still suggest further diluting the result (4:5) before use and storage.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jan 9, 2015

paulbarden said:
Noted, and thanks. Did you look at the link I included above, for the Amazon offering? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00685737E/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER (The $38 includes the shipping cost, obviously, so by the time I bought from the supplier you listed, the cost would end up being very close, I'm sure)

Those look great. I bought the 16oz bottles from US Plastic and I believe with shipping it totaled about $30. Since the bottles are a touch smaller than 500 mL, I would fill all the way to the top (no air) and end up with ten full bottles and one bottle about half full.

This is how I store any developer that isn't a two-bath solution. I date the bottles when mixed and also when opened, so if a few weeks go by and I am looking at 1/4 full bottle, it gets tossed and a fresh bottle opened. It's just not worth risking a good negative on "maybe it's still fresh" developer. My last batch went about 15 months with no problems.

These are also terrific for selenium 1:1 (which can be used to intensify negs), wash aid, etc.

bdial · Jan 9, 2015

For small bottles, I bought one of these Platypus flexible "wine preserver" bottles a few weeks back, but haven't actually put anything in it yet. Kind of pricey but not entirely out of line with other sorts of bottles sold for darkroom use;

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=28884186

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 9, 2015

I have about eight years of experience with using Xtol in replenished fashion.

The working solution was stored in a 2 liter brown plastic chemical storage bottle, which never failed me once.

The replenisher, which is nothing but pure stock Xtol developer, was stored in a container just like the working solution, and one accordion bottle, so that I could easily get rid of excess air in the bottle. When the accordion bottle is empty, I fill it back up with what's in the other 2 liter storage bottle.
In my eight years of using Xtol, the accordion bottle has not failed me once, even when I stored stock developer in it for as long as 10 months during a creativity block period. The activity was the same. I use local tap water to mix my chemicals.

Bottles were always stored in the basement, completely away from any sunlight, and in temperatures between 50 and 75 degrees Fahrenheit.

Xtol is an amazingly robust developer, and does not deserve the evil rumors that are spread about it.

I should say that I have also used Edwal 12 and Harvey's Panthermic 777 in exactly the same way as Xtol above, using standard and accordion brown plastic bottles. Never a problem. Activity always perfect. Make of it what you will.

Terry Christian · Jan 9, 2015

A couple more storage ideas:
1. Bladders from boxed wine (non-Mylar). A friend gave me a 3L, with the box, and it worked great.
2. Absolut vodka bottles are glass and have no weird dispenser thingies that can be a pain (as I discovered with Finlandia vodka).
3. Starbucks makes Mylar-ized bladders that they put in cardboard boxes for serving hot coffee in bulk (for meetings and such).

Question about storage of Xtol solution

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Question about storage of Xtol solution

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