Question about Pyrocat HD and Rating Ilford FP4 125 Film

Thinh__Le · Jul 17, 2023

I have heard that with Pyrocat HD that you want to rate the film at half its speed... I am interested in doing minimal agitation (semi-stand) development with Pyrocat HD and am curious as to what I should actually be rating my Ilford FP4 125 film at.

I would be developing in a SP-445 tank.

Is it okay to just rate it at its box speed with this developer? Any tips would be helpful in acquiring the perfect negative for Carbon Printing. Thanks!

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2023

Thinh__Le said:
I have heard that with Pyrocat HD that you want to rate the film at half its speed... I am interested in doing minimal agitation (semi-stand) development with Pyrocat HD and am curious as to what I should actually be rating my Ilford FP4 125 film at.

I would be developing in a SP-445 tank.

Is it okay to just rate it at its box speed with this developer? Any tips would be helpful in acquiring the perfect negative for Carbon Printing. Thanks!

Problem number 1: You are listening to the wrong people.

Thinh__Le · Jul 17, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Problem number 1: You are listening to the wrong people.

Yeah, I am unsure who to listen to. So am I fine to just shoot the film/develop it at its Box speed?

GregY · Jul 17, 2023

I use Pyrocat HD as my only developer & have since it came out. How I rate FP4 depends on the light conditions, but on average i rate it at 80. I'll add it also depends on the accuracy of your light meter (& how you take the readings) & on your shutter. All these things affect how much light reaches the film.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 17, 2023

I keep the glycol versions of Pyrocat-HD and Pyrocat-MC on hand for flexibility. The HD formulation (pyrocatechol+phenidone) produces much more stain than MC (pyrocatechol+metol+ascorbic acid).

I wouldn't recommend pyro formulations for stand development unless you're working with an extremely dilute developer and have a good idea of what you are doing, but that combo seems to be all the rage in certain corners of the internet.

My usual routine with pyrocat HD is to meter middle grey a bit deeper into the shadows, eg rate the film 1/2 to 1 stop under box, and use rotary processing if possible.

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2023

Thinh__Le said:
Yeah, I am unsure who to listen to. So am I fine to just shoot the film/develop it at its Box speed?

Use the box speed and adjust for the Zone System or other methods for shadows and filters as necessary.

koraks · Jul 17, 2023

Thinh__Le said:
Any tips would be helpful in acquiring the perfect negative for Carbon Printing.

I didn't find semi-stand development very useful for carbon printing. Long-scaled negatives are nice for carbon transfer. There's simply no need to hold back the highlights, which is what semi-stand is supposed to be doing. In terms of sharpness/acutance, it's not going to make much of a visible difference with contact prints.

YMMV of course. Btw, as to rating your film: I'd just rate it at 100 or so and then develop the heck out of it.

Thinh__Le · Jul 17, 2023

koraks said:
I didn't find semi-stand development very useful for carbon printing. Long-scaled negatives are nice for carbon transfer. There's simply no need to hold back the highlights, which is what semi-stand is supposed to be doing. In terms of sharpness/acutance, it's not going to make much of a visible difference with contact prints.

YMMV of course. Btw, as to rating your film: I'd just rate it at 100 or so and then develop the heck out of it.

Ahh, got it. Thanks for sharing!

koraks · Jul 17, 2023

Welcome. When I use Pyro at HD for carbon negatives, I like to go with dilutions like 1+1+50 or even stronger and then develop for the time given for a 1+1+100 dilution. That usually gets me pretty close.

Will you be doing carbon with dichromate or DAS?

Thinh__Le · Jul 17, 2023

koraks said:
Welcome. When I use Pyro at HD for carbon negatives, I like to go with dilutions like 1+1+50 or even stronger and then develop for the time given for a 1+1+100 dilution. That usually gets me pretty close.

Will you be doing carbon with dichromate or DAS?

What are your development times for 1+1+50? Is this with normal agitation?

I will be doing carbon with Das

koraks · Jul 17, 2023

Thinh__Le said:
What are your development times for 1+1+50? Is this with normal agitation?

I will be doing carbon with Das

I normally go with the times from the massive development chart. I never shoot fp4+, but if I did, I'd just go with the 1+1+100, time but use a much stronger dilution. I guess that's probably around 10 minutes.

I had lots of trouble with DAS carbon recently getting nice highlights. You really want bullet-proof negatives for this. Dichromate is much more flexible in adjusting contrast; with DAS you have pretty much nowhere to go if your negative lacks oomph.

The latest entry on my blog outlines my findings with DAS, culminating in the need for very long-scaled negatives.

Also, I just made a thread yesterday about developers for high contrast, you may want to check it out. If you happen to read it, you'll find that pyrocat HD isn't my first choice for this purpose. I prefer a non-staining developer, and more importantly, a non-compensating one, and one that gives minimal fog. Pyrocat isn't ideal for me under those conditions.

Thinh__Le · Jul 17, 2023

koraks said:
I normally go with the times from the massive development chart. I never shoot fp4+, but if I did, I'd just go with the 1+1+100, time but use a much stronger dilution. I guess that's probably around 10 minutes.

I had lots of trouble with DAS carbon recently getting nice highlights. You really want bullet-proof negatives for this. Dichromate is much more flexible in adjusting contrast; with DAS you have pretty much nowhere to go if your negative lacks oomph.

The latest entry on my blog outlines my findings with DAS, culminating in the need for very long-scaled negatives.

Also, I just made a thread yesterday about developers for high contrast, you may want to check it out. If you happen to read it, you'll find that pyrocat HD isn't my first choice for this purpose. I prefer a non-staining developer, and more importantly, a non-compensating one, and one that gives minimal fog. Pyrocat isn't ideal for me under those conditions.

Oh okay! I will definitely check out your blog and educate myself on these matters! Thank you so much again!

GLS · Jul 22, 2023

For semi stand at 1:1:100 dilution I rate it at EI 80 and develop at 22 C for 14 minutes. The negs always turn out well.

awty · Jul 23, 2023

koraks said:
I didn't find semi-stand development very useful for carbon printing. Long-scaled negatives are nice for carbon transfer. There's simply no need to hold back the highlights, which is what semi-stand is supposed to be doing. In terms of sharpness/acutance, it's not going to make much of a visible difference with contact prints.

YMMV of course. Btw, as to rating your film: I'd just rate it at 100 or so and then develop the heck out of it.

Really? Strong developer and long developing times.
I would argue the opposition unless you like doing a lot of burning of the highlights. Obviously you dont have to deal with strong highlights very often.

awty · Jul 23, 2023

GregY said:
I use Pyrocat HD as my only developer & have since it came out. How I rate FP4 depends on the light conditions, but on average i rate it at 80. I'll add it also depends on the accuracy of your light meter (& how you take the readings) & on your shutter. All these things affect how much light reaches the film.

I think that works in a general rule of thumb, but Im leaning to iso 125 with strong light and a large difference in between the extremes of highlights and shadows. When there isnt a big difference I use HP5.

koraks · Jul 23, 2023

awty said:
Really? Strong developer and long developing times.
I would argue the opposition unless you like doing a lot of burning of the highlights. Obviously you dont have to deal with strong highlights very often.

Carbon is a pretty long-scaled printing process, especially with DAS sensitizer. Prints tend to turn out rather flat and 'meh' in my experience from negatives with a lot of highlight compression. Not to mention that such negatives struggle to get to the density range required for the process to begin with. It's a little different with dichromate-sensitized carbon, which warrants more flexibility in tailoring the contrast of the printing process to the negative.

juan · Jul 23, 2023

koraks, I'm curious about what kind of subject brightness ranges you're dealing with to need more highlight boost.

koraks · Jul 23, 2023

juan said:
to need more highlight boost.

I don't need more highlight boost, but I prefer highlights to not compress more than the film tends to do by itself. Generally I use Fomapan films for carbon transfer, and those tend to slope off on the high end; 100 and 400 do so quite noticeably (400 is just about unusable for carbon IMO), but 200 does so, too, when development is extended. Scenes I photograph range from indoor artificially lit (strobes) portraits or still-lifes to pretty mundane landscapes. Here's one from the top of the pile on my desk:

This negative was Foma 200 metered at EI125, developed for 6 minutes in FX37 1+1, but this needed additional tonal scale extension which I did with chromium intensifier and redevelopment in FX37 again.

destroya · Jul 23, 2023

for normal reduced agitation, I usually do 1+1+100 72 degrees for either 15 min at half box speed or 18 min at box speed. 1 min initial agitation, then 10 seconds every 3 min. Foma films always at half box speed for 11 min

Another option is Steve Sherman's way. he has a real nice write up here. I have used it and it works fine, just takes a little longer.

RASS

john

koraks · Jul 23, 2023

@destroya do you do dichromate or DAS carbon? What's a typical pigment load for your tissue?

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