Question about determining actual paper grade

[weasel]

Thank you everyone. I am probably making this way more comlicated than I need to, and im not very good at articulating what I mean. When I have done this sort of testing in the past, ( something I try to avoid, lol), after determining my film speed, i shoot several sheets at that speed, and develop them for times both above and below " normal" times, and then the one that gives me the first visual change from paper white, ( zone VIII I guess?) using my already determined " standard" proof time, is the correct normal time. What got me thinking about all this is that doing it this way my negatives are tailored to that paper, and my standard process. But I never thought about what the actual paper grade really is, I just throw a number 2 filter in, or use graded paper, and call it good. But what if, for the sake of discussion, im getting really long film development times to get to that Zone VIII, is that not telling me that my paper has a lower contrast than a grade two? Would I be better served to use a higher contrast filter, and a shorter film development time ? Or does it even matter?

 

[DREW WILEY]

The Zone System is a helpful introductory model for getting printable content corralled within the realistic parameters of any given film curve. But once you've learned how to bag a versatile neg, it gets downright silly trying to precisely translate that into mechanical zones on the print, especially given the degree of flexibility VC papers have. I want "black", "white", and midtones in any given print to esthetically work in relation to that particular subject, not according to cut and dried artificial rules made by some Zone System guru who probably never followed those same rules himself. Let your own eyes and own taste make that decision. In many cases, I suspect that worrying about Grade this or Grade that, or Zone this, Zone that, just muddies the waters and becomes counterproductive. I never think about any of that when making prints.

As per your specific questions, some papers have more flexibility than others in terms of contrast and DMax enrichment through longer development times. Generally, premium, higher-priced papers do better in that respect. It's an option I often use.
But underdevelopment of VC papers typically causes a hue shift toward the warm. So it's not about just contrast and density, but about final image color.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

... But what if, for the sake of discussion, I'm getting really long film development times to get to that Zone VIII, is that not telling me that my paper has a lower contrast than a grade two? Would I be better served to use a higher contrast filter, and a shorter film development time ? Or does it even matter?

What matters is that you calibrate to an intermediate contrast to the contrast range of your paper (or a paper grade that is in the middle of the available paper grades) so that you have leeway on either side of your "normal" to be able to handle the inevitable variations in your negatives and the need to print with more or less contrast than your standard.

I try to keep tweaking my exposure and development times so that my negs print well with at 2.5-3 filtration. Then I've got all the way up through #5 or down to #00 to play with for all those "mistakes."

Best,

Doremus