Question about approaching someone

rhyno0688 · Nov 25, 2015

I have a couple ideas for 2 books that are complementary to each other but involve a more tasteful boudoir/sensual theme. The shoots I would do would be specific for the books so they would not be "clients" that are paying me for a shoot. I am not sure if this will lead to only producing a few books or possibly selling them to the masses.

I don't have the money to hire models for the books so I would approach them through various connections but I am not sure how I would write it in the model release/contract for compensation. My question to you all is, If i ended up profiting from the book how would you write into a contract some compensation, if they do it pro bono or tfp and I am making all the money it wouldn't be fair. My guess would be to say x% of the profits to a max of $xxx's and maybe a final copy of the book(s)? Is there a guide that anyone knows of that deals with this type of stuff or has anyone reading this done something similar?

thanks in advance

Sirius Glass · Nov 25, 2015

A few years ago there were a number of APUG threads on model releases. See if you can find them by searching.

mgb74 · Nov 25, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
A few years ago there were a number of APUG threads on model releases. See if you can find them by searching.

I think the issue is less about the model release per se, and more about how to structure compensation. I'm not sure how this type of contingent compensation would be viewed by prospective models, but I'd stay away from any form that involves detailed accounting. For example, if you say x% of profits, what's you're definition of "profit"? Are you including your time and, if so, at what rate? How about incidental expenses such as depreciation on your equipment? Or mileage to get to shooting location? You can see how it gets complex.

Personally, I'd opt for something simple, like $x per book sold; considering what one photo in a book of many photos is worth. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some eye rolling when you propose contingent compensation for boudoir/sensual modeling.

Jeff Bradford · Nov 26, 2015

I would pay them once for the shoot and get a full release for the resulting images. If that isn't in the budget, it may not yet be time to do the book.

Ian Leake · Nov 26, 2015

Contract for the shoot only, whether it's paid or unpaid. There's little point worrying about future profits. Very few books make a meaningful profit, and committing to some kind of profit share sets an unrealistic and misleading expectation.

The model release should include rights for future use of the pictures. You can agree specific details or leave this open with a catch-all statement. That's your choice and theirs. Just make sure that it's written down and signed.

rhyno0688 · Nov 26, 2015

mgb74 said:
I think the issue is less about the model release per se, and more about how to structure compensation. I'm not sure how this type of contingent compensation would be viewed by prospective models, but I'd stay away from any form that involves detailed accounting. For example, if you say x% of profits, what's you're definition of "profit"? Are you including your time and, if so, at what rate? How about incidental expenses such as depreciation on your equipment? Or mileage to get to shooting location? You can see how it gets complex.

Personally, I'd opt for something simple, like $x per book sold; considering what one photo in a book of many photos is worth. But I wouldn't be surprised to see some eye rolling when you propose contingent compensation for boudoir/sensual modeling.

Jeff Bradford said:
I would pay them once for the shoot and get a full release for the resulting images. If that isn't in the budget, it may not yet be time to do the book.

Ian Leake said:
Contract for the shoot only, whether it's paid or unpaid. There's little point worrying about future profits. Very few books make a meaningful profit, and committing to some kind of profit share sets an unrealistic and misleading expectation.

The model release should include rights for future use of the pictures. You can agree specific details or leave this open with a catch-all statement. That's your choice and theirs. Just make sure that it's written down and signed.

Iluvmycam said:
Yes, I concur. You are overcomplicating things OP.

Who will be making the books for you? Do you have a publisher that is fronting book printing costs? If you can't pay a model how will you pay for tens of thousands of $ in printing costs if you have no pub? If you go to Blurb and print one book at a time, the cost of printing is more than most of the books are worth sans any profit for you.

Just give the models $1 or $5 for consummating the contract and do the shoots. If you ever make any money out of the project, then out of the goodness of your heart give them a share of the profits if you like.

I can afford to print a couple of books and that is what I intend to do but if it turns out good then I would show it to a few publishers. First and foremost it is a project and I tend to keep it that way, just if it ever did get picked up for publishing I was wanting to know how I could pay back those in the books. As I said it is a project and I doubt much will come of it. I would just like to get this stuff sorted out before and not have to worry about it later. There are few things that I do ahead of time and that is make sure my ass is covered in case of legal action.

So basically what you all are telling me is to keep it simple and view it more as tfp or whatever comes up just as long as they sign a model release that has a clause stating that I retain all rights to the photo and can make future printed media blah blah blah (insert legal lingo.) Just don't put any context that relates to reimbursement from future sales if if happens.

MattKing · Nov 26, 2015

If you want to "pay back" those who contribute to what turns out to be a financial success, you can do that with thanks in the book, and a willingness to pass on contact information for those (models?) who regularly do this for remuneration.

A model release that permits models to use prints from the shoot for their own portfolio (but no other publication) is also one way to "share the wealth".

The legal lingo stuff is important. Be wary about doing this without some legal help. A poorly chosen form of release may be worse than no release at all, and no release at all is a bad choice.

I practiced law (but not this type of law) for a long time. When I did, it was invariably the case that it was a lot cheaper to get my help before problems arose, then after my clients were embroiled in a dispute.

Alan Klein · Nov 26, 2015

Once when I was in the commercial building systems service business, I spent around $5000 designing and building this special product I thought I could sell. After it built secretly, I went to a good business acquaintance who could be a buyer to fly it by him. He came up with a reason that made sense that put the kabash on the whole thing. They had cheaper, better way of doing almost the same thing. The point is I should have not been so secretive and taken him out for dinner to discuss before i started going down the road. I would have saved a lot of time and money. Or maybe he would have helped me go in a different, more production way.

First, what are you doing with your photography that makes it special and stands out so that I would buy your book? Have you checked to see if others have done something similar and how many book sales have they made? Why not check with publishers now before you go down the road too far and spend money on something that won't sell or not sell ell enough to make it worthwhile. While I've never done this, I would think that publishers in the boudoir scene business would offer you free advice since you might become a prospective client of theirs. Why not go see them?

Anyway, good luck on whatever you decide to do. I'm always impressed with people who are entrepreneurial and want to work out of the box. And let us know how you made out, one way or the other.

BrianShaw · Nov 26, 2015

This might sound cold, but models are tools for your creativity... Just like your camera, lighting equipment or set. Either pay them well, or pay them peanuts... But pay them for their services and go forth with your project. If, perchance, either yourself or the model is famous then your agents will know how to do more complex remuneration.

I suggest paying them as well as you can, especially if you're expecting them to provide wardrobe and makeup services too. In fact, asking them to disrobe should be compensated well too.

Your project sounds like a hobby dream at this point. Why not shoot samples using your wife, girlfriend or a cousin. That would give you something to show prospective models and make things go more smoothly.

rhyno0688 · Nov 26, 2015

MattKing said:
If you want to "pay back" those who contribute to what turns out to be a financial success, you can do that with thanks in the book, and a willingness to pass on contact information for those (models?) who regularly do this for remuneration.

A model release that permits models to use prints from the shoot for their own portfolio (but no other publication) is also one way to "share the wealth".

The legal lingo stuff is important. Be wary about doing this without some legal help. A poorly chosen form of release may be worse than no release at all, and no release at all is a bad choice.

I practiced law (but not this type of law) for a long time. When I did, it was invariably the case that it was a lot cheaper to get my help before problems arose, then after my clients were embroiled in a dispute.

Thank you for the tips/advice, I'll have to find someone that can help me with a "well polished" release.

Alan Klein said:
Once when I was in the commercial building systems service business, I spent around $5000 designing and building this special product I thought I could sell. After it built secretly, I went to a good business acquaintance who could be a buyer to fly it by him. He came up with a reason that made sense that put the kabash on the whole thing. They had cheaper, better way of doing almost the same thing. The point is I should have not been so secretive and taken him out for dinner to discuss before i started going down the road. I would have saved a lot of time and money. Or maybe he would have helped me go in a different, more production way.

First, what are you doing with your photography that makes it special and stands out so that I would buy your book? Have you checked to see if others have done something similar and how many book sales have they made? Why not check with publishers now before you go down the road too far and spend money on something that won't sell or not sell ell enough to make it worthwhile. While I've never done this, I would think that publishers in the boudoir scene business would offer you free advice since you might become a prospective client of theirs. Why not go see them?

Anyway, good luck on whatever you decide to do. I'm always impressed with people who are entrepreneurial and want to work out of the box. And let us know how you made out, one way or the other.

Thats a real bummer but it sounds like you learned from that experience. knowledge is worth more than money, at least I think so. Honestly I don't know what makes me special from everyone else, I haven't done much of this stuff before but have some shoots lined up to play around, I have a friend that models and is more than willing to help out so I can refine my work. The books that I want to do are going to be black and white - High key and Low key, 2 books, 2 looks. I'll keep this forum posted once I have the project in motion!

BrianShaw said:
This might sound cold, but models are tools for your creativity... Just like your camera, lighting equipment or set. Either pay them well, or pay them peanuts... But pay them for their services and go forth with your project. If, perchance, either yourself or the model is famous then your agents will know how to do more complex remuneration.

I suggest paying them as well as you can, especially if you're expecting them to provide wardrobe and makeup services too. In fact, asking them to disrobe should be compensated well too.

Your project sounds like a hobby dream at this point. Why not shoot samples using your wife, girlfriend or a cousin. That would give you something to show prospective models and make things go more smoothly.

Valid points and yes, hobby dream. I have a friend that is going to help me with a couple shoots and she has modeled boudoir in the past

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Question about approaching someone

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