Question About 35mm Film Leader

FilmOnly · Nov 13, 2011

Is it safe to shoot frame 0 with a camera that leaves the leader out when done rewinding? I ask because the Nikon F3P allows for metered shots on frame "0" (and the rest of the leader, I believe), but the camera auto rewinds with the leader left out. Thus, is this added feature (being able to shoot some or all of the leader at a speed other than 1/60th) of the F3P defeated by the leader being left out?

Gerald C Koch · Nov 13, 2011

One has to worry about light-piping when using a short leader. It depends on the film base, some suffer from this problem and others do not. You will just have to try and see. Remember to load only in subdued light. Overall a foolish economy in my estimation.

If you reload the light trap in the cassettes become less effective the more they are used. This increases the chance that the first few frames may become fogged.

BrianShaw · Nov 13, 2011

On any camera, whether the leader is left out or pulled into the cassette, shooting on the leader (or the tail) is dicey. Sometimes it will work; other times it will not. Overall a false economy in my estimation.

FilmOnly · Nov 13, 2011

I understand the false economy comments. If shooting even part of the leader is risky, why would Nikon add this feature on their "P" (professional/photojournalist) version of the F3?

Roger Cole · Nov 13, 2011

Try it with your camera with shots that don't matter and see. I can do it but I don't like to do so. In fact I shoot 35 shots on 36 exposure rolls, at least if I'm developing them myself (meaning black and white currently.) The reason is that I like to file them in seven strips of five exposure pages, which allow contact printing right on an 8x10 sheet, rather than six strips of six pages which don't. I can also, with factory loads, get at least one and maybe two extra shots on the tail, but some commercial slide processors will lose that last one and it's a bad habit because I also bulk load and the last two frames the camera will expose without tearing the film will be fogged.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 13, 2011

FilmOnly said:
I understand the false economy comments. If shooting even part of the leader is risky, why would Nikon add this feature on their "P" (professional/photojournalist) version of the F3?

The frame counter does not set until the back is closed. Some people wind more leader onto the take up spool than others before closing the back. If these people were to start at "1" they might not be able to get the full number of exposures.

Some people view the frame counter differently and believe that before taking any frames that it should read "0". Others think of it as indicating the number of the frame to be taken. I say poTAYto. you say poTAHto.

BrianShaw · Nov 13, 2011

FilmOnly said:
I understand the false economy comments. If shooting even part of the leader is risky, why would Nikon add this feature on their "P" (professional/photojournalist) version of the F3?

I have a theory, based on use of "Non-P" F3s... the meter lock-out is just a P-I-A and annoying. So I suspect they changed that to avoid complaints rather than providing a way to get a couple of "free" frames.

Ian C · Nov 13, 2011

Is it possible that the feature you speak of was meant as a time saver in processing? By leaving the leader out we dont have to open the cassette, simply snip the leader and begin feeding the film into a reel or continuous-strip processor.

Many of us routinely stop short when rewinding manually to leave the leader out. I do so to speed processing.

I also do this when wanting to change film types mid roll. By recording the last frame number shot and taping a note to the outside of the cassette, the film can later be reloaded 1-2 sprocket holes further than usual and advanced one frame number greater than the last frame shot so as not to overlap a previously exposed frame. Then I can use the remainder of the partially shot roll.

This doesnt explain frame-0 metering, but the rest matches the way many of us leave the leader out for processing ease or mid-roll film changes.

Ian C · Nov 13, 2011

Nikon used to make the MF-6B back for the F3 that did this automatically when attatched to the MD4 motor drive.

This is given on

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/databack/index.htm

MF-6B Camera Back is also called Auto Film-Stop Back. Use especially well with the fast auto rewind MD-4 motor drive, it attaches to any F3-series camera in place of standard camera back for automatic film rewind-stop, with the film leader being left outside of the cartridge to permit easier darkroom handling.

fstop · Nov 13, 2011

Ian C said:
Is it possible that the feature you speak of was meant as a time saver in processing? By leaving the leader out we dont have to open the cassette, simply snip the leader and begin feeding the film into a reel or continuous-strip processor.

Many of us routinely stop short when rewinding manually to leave the leader out. I do so to speed processing.

I also do this when wanting to change film types mid roll. By recording the last frame number shot and taping a note to the outside of the cassette, the film can later be reloaded 1-2 sprocket holes further than usual and advanced one frame number greater than the last frame shot so as not to overlap a previously exposed frame. Then I can use the remainder of the partially shot roll.

This doesnt explain frame-0 metering, but the rest matches the way many of us leave the leader out for processing ease or mid-roll film changes.

Faster processing is the key here.Especially for slide film,no dark room facilites are needed and a simple changing bag or dark closet would get the film into the developing tank.No electricity needed for an enlarger.Afterward the film could then be viewed with no further processing.

Chan Tran · Nov 13, 2011

I never try to get the extra frames out of a roll. What I try to do when loading a camera is to get the frame number line up correctly. I found this is different on each model of cameras and on each brand/type of film.

flash26c · Nov 13, 2011

You know that some people change film in the midle of a roll - B&W to color, slide to print, etc. I thought that is what the leader left out of the cassette was for?

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 13, 2011

flash26c said:
You know that some people change film in the midle of a roll - B&W to color, slide to print, etc. I thought that is what the leader left out of the cassette was for?

That's correct. And that bit of leader is useful for writing notes on after unloading and then prior to reloading.
And what is the lab going to snip onto if you are squeezing in frame 0?

Bill Burk · Mar 20, 2012

I wouldn't like a camera that decided I get 36 shots. Period.

I use the leader to warm up, get into the rhythm of shooting.

And an extra shot always feels good to have. That uncertainty is one of the benefits of 35mm shooting... can I get one more frame? Two? Really?

So I stick the tail in the spool, close the back and start shooting. Sure I get the occasional frame 0 of my feet. But more often than not, I get an alternate take of the first shot of the day, and a last chance to get it right at the end.

I also keep one of those Ilford 72-shot reels just in case a bulk-loaded roll of film is a little on the renegade side of capacity.

Les Sarile · Mar 20, 2012

I maximized my last roll of Kodachrome 25 with my F3HP by loading it in a darkroom and only advancing it once with "00" coming out as the first frame. I generally get 37 and getting 38 in not uncommon.

Roger Cole · Mar 20, 2012

If you bulk load you can't push to the end - unless you load in total darkness the last frames you could otherwise squeeze out will be fogged.

Bill Burk · Mar 20, 2012

Roger Cole said:
If you bulk load you can't push to the end - unless you load in total darkness the last frames you could otherwise squeeze out will be fogged.

I know... that drives me crazy. Good thing I've got a darkroom and IR viewer...

Newt_on_Swings · Mar 20, 2012

Man I think I need one of those fancy IR viewer goggles. Sitting in the dark hand loading is a chore if your doing like 200ft a sitting =[

LJSLATER · Mar 21, 2012

I always start shooting on frame 00 and shoot until the very end. If I load the film into my camera (F2) in daylight, 00 comes out half-fogged, but I think it's fun. I once found a group on Flickr showcasing only half-fogged photos from the beginning or end of the roll; I can't find it now though.

I can't stand wasting film, even if it's a frame or two; I get around 38 shots per roll. I use film pages that hold seven rows of six frames each.

If your F3P leaves too much leader out when you use the motor rewind, you can always turn the crank once or twice before you open the back, right? Or you can do as others advised by loading and unloading your camera in darkness.

Zathras · Mar 21, 2012

Bill Burk said:
I know... that drives me crazy. Good thing I've got a darkroom and IR viewer...

Hi Bill,

The IR viewer sounds interesting. Where can I buy one, and how much would it set me back?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan

Ed Bray · Mar 21, 2012

Roger Cole said:
The reason is that I like to file them in seven strips of five exposure pages, which allow contact printing right on an 8x10 sheet, rather than six strips of six pages which don't.

Not true, the Paterson contact printer takes 6 rows of 6 and prints them all on a 10" x 8" sheet of paper. 5 strips of 7 prints vertically, 6 strips of 6 print horizontally.

Roger Cole · Mar 21, 2012

Ed Bray said:
Not true, the Paterson contact printer takes 6 rows of 6 and prints them all on a 10" x 8" sheet of paper. 5 strips of 7 prints vertically, 6 strips of 6 print horizontally.

It most certainly IS true.

It may ALSO be true that this Paterson contact printer (you're the second person who has mentioned it - who sells it, how does it work, and how much?) will contact these, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I can also contact them myself by just playing the film strips out on the paper under my Delta proofer's glass. What I'm talking about are the negative pages I file them in that I can also contact through. Granted, you lose some sharpness so it's not the best ever contact print, but suffices for judging exposure, composition etc. (pretty much everything except sharpness.) I like being able to contact print a roll in the pages. The pages that hold seven strips of five allow this. The pages that hold six strips of six don't. So I only shoot 35 shots on 35mm rolls.

clayne · Mar 21, 2012

One reason I use 8.5x11 ilford for contacts. I do straight contacts though, just glass on top.

Ed Bray · Mar 21, 2012

Roger Cole said:
It most certainly IS true.

It may ALSO be true that this Paterson contact printer (you're the second person who has mentioned it - who sells it, how does it work, and how much?) will contact these, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I can also contact them myself by just playing the film strips out on the paper under my Delta proofer's glass. What I'm talking about are the negative pages I file them in that I can also contact through. Granted, you lose some sharpness so it's not the best ever contact print, but suffices for judging exposure, composition etc. (pretty much everything except sharpness.) I like being able to contact print a roll in the pages. The pages that hold seven strips of five allow this. The pages that hold six strips of six don't. So I only shoot 35 shots on 35mm rolls.

My apologies, I missed that you were printing through your negative filing pages.

Paterson were a UK darkroom equipment manufacturer and produced many darkroom product from graduates for mixing through to enlargers and colour processors. Some items were good, some not so although their later 120 and 35mm contact printers were very good if not a little expensive these days, when I bought mine they cost half what they do now.

Bill Burk · Mar 21, 2012

Zathras said:
Hi Bill,

The IR viewer sounds interesting. Where can I buy one, and how much would it set me back?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan

Hi Mike,

The ATN Viper is only three hundred. I bought it from BH but later found out they are made "practically" across the street in South SF...

Question About 35mm Film Leader

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