Query: Scanning for MF Contact Sheet

Working a hybrid workflow, I think I've solved the quality scanning issue with a Nikon Coolscan 8000 tuned and cleaned up. For scans at 4000 MP it runs about 10 minutes including a preview on 120 film. That's a big slowdown if I'm gonna do that all day. Read about a hybrid workflow that builds contact sheets using a flatbed and then switches to higher quality using "better" solutions. If you were able to generate a 120 MF or even 35mm format without intervention... but just laying 2 strips of fiilm down on the flatbed, walking away and let'er rip, I can see the appeal. In fact, if an Epson V600 or similar or even a V700 could do this, workflow could take a giant leap forward. Some folks I guess are better at their light tables than I am with mine, and maybe don't need this, but for me, a contact sheet would be worth it longer term and then just use the NC-8000 for the "selects". I'm curious whether anyone out there has found an approach of this sort to work satisfactorily, and if so, how you're proceeding and with what. Best as I can tell, the argument for a V700 (or better) for this process isn't about quality but about film holders for MF that offer 2-channels of film (from better scanning). I've read of others using a V600 and simply laying the film down with ANR (or even sheet glass) on top to hold it down.

I’m using an Epson V700 to scan all my films 135 and 120 at 1200dpi to make an archive in Lightroom. In Lightroom, the films are classified in subjects. The film has the same number as the negative sleeve, so I can find any negative fast. Six negatives are scanned within minutes.
As quality is not the most important thing, I scan in the Epson negative holders, batch scanning with the Epson software, the results are good enough to judge the negatives and even to use them for the internet occasionally. No post processing, the Epson software does it all automatically.
And when I want to use a negative, I print in the darkoom or scan with my Imacon (which takes almost 20 minutes )
Regards,
Frank

I use a V600. I'll scan flat and review the results as to which pictures have the more widespread range in black and white points. (I bracket my shots.) I don't see how using the Auto function in the V600 scanner would help since it's going to try to "equalize" the results to make all the shots good. That makes it harder to determine the shot that has the best exposure of the three bracketed shots.

Alan: Are you using the Epson film holders, or simply laying strips of film on the platten? One strip or two? (I'm after "dual" to cut the time as much as possible).
Frank: Imacon. That's one giant step ahead. Same idea, only better.

If all you want is a ready-reference by way of a contact sheet then the negatives/transparencies can be laid down directly on the glass and scanned. Multiple pages can be saved and combined in post software to form a virtual "proof sheet". Results will not be optimal though, and work will be required in post. This 'quick and cheerful' method can be done with the Epson V600, V700 and later V850. Scan quality is of course much improved and more impressive if the attendant MF holders are used, and quality takes another leap if Betterscan holders are employed (after fine-tuning height).

For a "contact sheet", an input scan of 4000 is unnecessary; try 300 to 700. Scanning at 4000 and above at the start is for dusting/cloning-out (at 200-400% mag.) and associated post work before resampling down to c. 300 or so for printing, once profiled to tif.By that stage everything that needs to be done pre-print has been done and nothing overlooked.

Laying the film strips down for a quick preview is a quick way to see what the roll looks like. Here are a couple of examples.

This first one is from slide film Fuji Astia 100 and the strips are inserted in a plastic holder that I just laid down on top of the glass of my V700.


Full res version -> http://www.fototime.com/EEEB5C4CBC442CB/orig.jpg
Unfortunately the fixed spacing between the strips means that the bottom strip gets cutoff.

This second one is from color negative Kodak Portra 400UC and I laid the strips down on the glass and tried to overlap them to get as much in. I suppose I could have overlapped them more and get the last strip in if I really wanted to.


Full res version -> http://www.fototime.com/B3997C3A230D873/orig.jpg

As you can see, even at 600dpi they are relatively useful preview - better than the thumbnail view, and very fast to do.

Of course the real value of the V700 is when scanning the larger films that the Coolscan cannot physically accommodate like this 4X5 b&w from WWII.

JWMster said:

Alan: Are you using the Epson film holders, or simply laying strips of film on the platten? One strip or two? (I'm after "dual" to cut the time as much as possible).
Frank: Imacon. That's one giant step ahead. Same idea, only better.

Click to expand...

Skip: The V600 can only can strips of negatives. So the most you can scan at one time is (3) 6x7's. I use the V600 holder. I have my film developed by pro shops that provide flat negatives in plastic holders. So, I didn't find the Better Scanner holder any better that the Epson scan holder.

The V700, V800 and V850, which I don;t own, have larger scanner areas than the V600. I believe they scan up to 8x10's. So you can scan lots more negatives of 135 and 120 format.

You can speed up the works if you are using Vuescan. I think there is a scan from preview, or maybe now it just does it automatically. If you set the preview to the same resolution as the scan you want, all you have to do is make adjustments, draw your crop and hit SAVE, not scan. If you don't have any selections like multipass or multisample it will just take the info right off the preview and save it. Give it a whirl. Also, if you are doing preview scans, just scan at a lower resolution. Faster.

It is really fast though to just use a flatbed and it will save wear on your Nikon, although my 4000 has seen some 60000 scans and still tickin'. Same scan from preview applies. You can pop them right out since anything that fits on the bed only has to go through a preview pass, not a scan pass (same thing really).

Hope that helps and saves you some time!

I can't advise on the flatbeds, but with the 8000/9000 and Vuescan there are ways. For 120 film with my 9000 I have the preview set to 667 ppi. It's a considerably faster preview than at a higher ppi and gives sufficient info to show things like acceptable sharpness to help decide if the frame is scan-worty or not. For 135 film I use the 12-strip holder but have the preview at 2000 ppi, which is the highest I scan both 120 and 135 film unless I really need a higher resolution which is very rare. 2000 ppi is, for me, a sweet spot since it allows acceptably large prints and good enough resolution for internet viewing.

br
Philip

JWMster said:

Working a hybrid workflow, I think I've solved the quality scanning issue with a Nikon Coolscan 8000 tuned and cleaned up. For scans at 4000 MP it runs about 10 minutes including a preview on 120 film. That's a big slowdown if I'm gonna do that all day. Read about a hybrid workflow that builds contact sheets using a flatbed and then switches to higher quality using "better" solutions. If you were able to generate a 120 MF or even 35mm format without intervention... but just laying 2 strips of fiilm down on the flatbed, walking away and let'er rip, I can see the appeal. In fact, if an Epson V600 or similar or even a V700 could do this, workflow could take a giant leap forward. Some folks I guess are better at their light tables than I am with mine, and maybe don't need this, but for me, a contact sheet would be worth it longer term and then just use the NC-8000 for the "selects". I'm curious whether anyone out there has found an approach of this sort to work satisfactorily, and if so, how you're proceeding and with what. Best as I can tell, the argument for a V700 (or better) for this process isn't about quality but about film holders for MF that offer 2-channels of film (from better scanning). I've read of others using a V600 and simply laying the film down with ANR (or even sheet glass) on top to hold it down.

Click to expand...

Well.... I've taken another crack at Batch Scanning with the Nikon Coolscan 8000 and it looks like I'm getting somewhere. Doesn't change the initial thought, but it does speed up the process. Yes, I've been using 667 for PREVIEW, but the real trick has been to set the Crop Size to 6cm X 6cm for Preview (Switches in Scan to the Actual Crop size selected - which is inevitably closer to 55 (mm) X 55 (mm). The other trick has been to set up the Frame Spacing. I'm currently using 62.5 (mm), but I gotta say that the Bronica SQ is not the most regular at frame spacing. This particular film of Velvia slides is one thing... apparently I cranked it just fine. But with many of my B&W's I see variances in the spacing that could give me fits. I have a 2nd body bought of KEH and this first one should probably be sent out for a CLA before I consign the regular frame spacing idea to the ash bin of "nice ideas". But I'm beginning to see progress. Between Chris Crawford on one hand and Ed Hammrick on the other, this thing is beginning to work - even with color slides ( a color space I've been reluctant to embrace in lieu of sticking with digital here).

The flatbed for a MF contact sheet still is an idea "in the hopper", but given the $ consumption of returning to film this year has set me back a bit, I may hold off for a while. Cameras, developing equip, scanners, and printers do add up, and I need to sell off some more of my other hobby gear before I indulge the luxury of saving more time. Time is a luxury I ain't got much either though.... so it's a press. Like the V700 option as it's available used and with a dual channel holder - either Epson's own or Betterscanning's. Doesn't really matter which as the purpose is simply a rough scan.... or like I've suggested and Les is doing very nicely... just laying the film strips down on the glass. Quick is good.

The quickest way for me to make a "contact sheet" is to scan with my DSLR. I just lay them on a light box, set the camera over them focused so that the negative (or slide) takes up the majority of the screen, hold it down with tape or my fingers (in a rubber glove) and shoot. Once you get it all set up, it goes pretty quickly. I'm not looking for final prints here. I'm just looking for a rough idea of what I have to work with. From there, I just import into Photoshop and do a batch process on the pictures using some saved color curves I made to match that particular setup and film. Photoshop can knock out an entire role in under two minutes. The longest part of it all is setting up the camera and light box, and cleaning the negative afterwards. Some things may be slightly out of focus. And some colors may be slightly off. There will be dust and stuff to contend with. But it's just a contact sheet. After reviewing them, I can spend some time and rescan the good ones with more care and attention by whichever method I choose. This method seems to produce better results (ones I can crop and post online at least) in less time than going through the scanner.

For the final scan, I either do a wet scan on my scanner (if I'm not looking to blow it up huge), or I'll rescan it with my DSLR using multiple shots (instead of just one) and stitch them together. The DSLR gives me the best resolution, but stitching things can cause issues and be a real headache to deal with when it does, so unless I need that extra bit of resolution, I usually just wet scan on my scanner to save time and hassle. The stitching works pretty well as long as I don't break it up into too many segments, and there isn't a lot of dead space, or repeating patterns in one of the sections (like nothing but sky or building windows). Photoshop is pretty good about seeing how one section relates to the other, but not so good about seeing how all of the sections relate to each other, if that makes sense. And stitching by hand is no fun.

jim10219 said:

And stitching by hand is no fun.

Click to expand...

And neither is converting color negative to a positive image.

Patrick Robert James said:

It is really fast though to just use a flatbed and it will save wear on your Nikon, although my 4000 has seen some 60000 scans and still tickin'.

Click to expand...

You got me beat as I only have a combined total of just over 45,000 scans from my Coolscans 5000/9000.

Yeah.... the prospect of stitching isn't one I face with joy; nor the conversion of an orange negative into "good" color. I'm shooting Velvia for color so far as at least the slide let's you see what supposedly was "there". I remember taking beautifully warm colors with Kodachrome when I was a teenager. But what I'm seeing in the few Velvia slides I've taken and scanned is color that isn't necessarily "true", but better than the original. Chesapeake Bay as reflecting the blue sky as opposed to it's usual murky brackish green-brown. If I have to blow the color... at least make it an upgrade good for my imaginiation. Most of what I shoot is B&W, so this is a rare treat. That said, I've been a DSLR scanner until picking up MF 6X6 which I felt just didn't get it done. Used a Plustek 8200 but it was slow and painful. Nikon Coolscan seems worth the bother. The trick is figuring out how to make the processes work together. I'm getting there... just not "done" quite yet. Thanks for sharing your contact sheet approach. I may have to take a look at that. So far my light table is mostly good for a look, but I've not done more than use it to cut MF negatives in strips of 3.

Les Sarile said:

And neither is converting color negative to a positive image.

Click to expand...

That gets a lot easier with experience. When I first started scanning, that was the biggest issue I faced. It took me forever to get an acceptable looking color photo, and I never could seem to get one that looked as good as a professional scan. I tried several different methods including Colorperfect, the "lock base color" in Vuescan, and eventually settled down with the curves tool in Photoshop. It's the hardest to get started on, but I think it offers the most flexibility. Over time I learned how to read the negative and operate the tool much like how a musician plays an instrument. At first, you're trying to control the instrument. But with enough practice, it becomes an extension of your body and the motion and the notion happen simultaneously. Now color converting is relatively drama free and painless.

The real hard part is maintaining the "look" of a particular film. I have a habit of neutralizing all of the color films to look similar, if I don't keep that in mind. Keeping a few reference photos on hand helps to check them against. Otherwise my Ektars come out too green and my Portras too saturated.

What I've been doing is using an LED light table and using a digital camera to do contact sheets. I open it in Photoshop to reverse the negative image. It's pretty fast.

For a MF contact sheet I put the negatives in strips of three or four in a PrintFile sleeve, lay the sleeve on the bed of my V700 under a sheet of ANR glass and do a single 1200 dpi scan of the entire roll. The whole process takes about 5 minutes. I can do the same thing with seven 5-exposure strips of 35mm film but my 35mm scanning process with a digital camera is so fast that I seldom bother, but that's a topic for another thread...

jim10219 said:

That gets a lot easier with experience.

Click to expand...

I consider myself an expert in photo manipulation as I've been doing it since Amiga Toaster days but I have only done a dozen or so DSLR color negative conversions and my results pale by comparison to fully automatic scans using the Coolscan 5000/9000+Nikonscan. This is tough since a full res scan with dust and scratch removal on 35mm takes less then a minute per frame and my imperfect workflow - and everyone else's that I've reviewed, takes more than a minute per image which negates the speed advantage when using a DSLR to begin with.

However, Nikon just released the D850 that has a color negative conversion built-in and will be very curious to test how that works out. I am hoping they have implemented their algorithm from Nikonscan into this. Of course they cannot implement dust and scratch removal so I am not looking forward to dealing with that . . .

I have to agree with Les. And yet while admitting I haven't done the stitch-together DSLR scan, I've done some pretty decent stuff. Repeatable and all that. And yet there's something about the process that produces results that aren't as refined as I'd like. It works and it's reasonably fast, but I don't feel like it's producing what I want. With 35mm, it's just fine. It works and it's good enough. But put a big negative in front of the lens, and the wheels just came off for me.This Nikon Coolscan thing.... yeah, I like the output better. Much. And I feel like I (finally) have the tools that will let me get back to photography. Scarey as that is.... it's time.

So this morning after wrestling a bit with my scanner to figure out how to work with this thing and Capture One (Capture One didn't like some of the DNG files from the night before 'cause Vuescan's DNG's aren't as workable as their TIFF DNG's), I think I'm coming 'round to a "solution" that might address a number of issues. And at the outset, I think it's going to look a bit more like Les's process (or what I think might be his process) than I'd immediately expected.

1) I'm gonna lose the idea of the Epson V700 for now and leave that as perhaps an upgrade to getting some experience with a DSLR-based solution for now.
2) Given that light falling on the film isn't a problem if the film is lit on a light table, I think I may just see what happens if you follow Les's example and shoot the negatives while still in the PrintFile sleeve... which can work handily as a holder
3) Import the "Contact Sheet" shot with my Sony A&RII this way and either work from there, or print it on the Epson. Later might not be cheap, but on a 1 sheet of paper, might also provide a handy reference for the file that could also be marked up in terms of disk drive storage and used to guide which Selected Negatives are actually scanned.
4) Scan the Selects and use the storage and naming as marked on the Contact Sheet and kept together in the Notebook of PrintFile sleeves or (as at present) in the Archival Box.

This might not be the whole of Les's process, but it could solve a bunch of problems at once. My DIskDrive is a mess and getting messier. I've broken out my drive by Year and Subject, but from there I haven't been as organized as I need to be (as the file library continues to grow), and I can see a glimmer of a blended approach here that makes more sense than I thought it did. I have to thank Les in particular here for germinating in my mind a hybrid integration of filing and (reduced) scanning. When I did digital, of course you have every image. And with some of those images weeks and months later... the space of time clarifies that some of the immediate reactions were off base and the instantly judged "keepers" weren't so good, and some of the "meh's" really were pretty darn good. In returning to film, I've tended to scan everything and this is a bit insane in terms of time. Somehow, a blended approach using digitally shot Contact Sheets just seems more rational... if I can stick with it. And I realize that's a very big IF. Certainly this seems to work fairly well for MF and color slides (Velvia), but whether it can work for B&W negatives and 35mm may be another story... or at least require more training.

Let me thank everyone for giving me some insight into how you guys go about this. This has been enormously helpful, and a good start on improving a part of the photography process that doesn't get nearly as much "play" as perhaps it should. I'm still open for suggestions, and really if anyone else out there is as impressed with the input folks have shared here, I'd really like to think we could still collect info on how others are working their post-shooting process to go from negatives to whatever is their next step: wet print, digital print or web display.

So to all who helped me get some direction and figure this out, Thank you! As part of that, I'm passing on what I learned in the process that I'm using (see below... or don't).

Two months plus later, thought I'd note where I am with this. Did a lot of scans learning the new scanner, but frankly as fast as it is with a Nikon Coolscan 8000 - especially the automation of the 35mm scans! it still takes time. Part of the reason I wanted to go with contact sheets is to have a better record of my shooting, and keeping the shots together. The contact sheets show the film type, the frame number, etc. and with some minor corrections first in Capture One to give an over-all impression of the outing, I'm liking it.

The approach I'm using follows here: which details putting the negatives in a PrintFile - which I use anyway for storage, and then laying this down on a PentaPixel lightbox - which I've had for a decade. Next a sheet of glass goes on top to hold everything flat. For this, since I've messed around with ordering glass before, I knew Anti-Newton Glass avoids the rings, so I sought that out. Found an old PrintFile contact sheet press on eBay for $30 or so from Adorama which is far cheaper and sturdier than I could have found otherwise. Press this on top, grab the digital camera, a lens, a battery, and the hardest part these days... where did I put my memory card case? Found it ...finally, and recognized... that yeah, I guess I'm (almost) all-in with this analog shooting thing if I can't find the memory cards! Yipes! But once you take care of business with the digicam, you're ready to convert the file.

Here as detailed in the youtube above, I open my Vuescan software, switch the mode to "Transparency" and find the file. After choosing your settings, I hit "PREVIEW" and adjust the framing, and then "SCAN" to a DNG file. From there I pull it into Capture One, make a few curve adjustments, export the results back out, and print. Below is a roll shot this past weekend walking the dog on the C&O canal in the Swain's Lock area... including an accidental "fire" in frame 1... and yes, don't you love the Winter Styx? Throwaway shots basically done for practice, and to learn XTOL-R with a new-to-me Jobo. Shot with the Rollei SLX2 for which I rebuilt the battery (explained elsewhere) and using the 150mm Sonnar lens which I haven't really done much with. Rollei SLX2 has shutter priority AE and I gave that a whirl here shooting TMY-2 (TMAX 400) at box speed on a bright day towards late morning and processing it in XTOL-R ... my partially seasoned XTOL. Developed using N+1 to compensate for low contrast according to Chris Johnson's time formulas. Wow! Waaaay to technical, huh? Who cares, right? Probably too many moving variables for one session... but hey, it's only practice. Wanna know the problem with the Rollei SLX2? Too many places to put your finger and fire the shutter: Right side, Left side, center cable release, and I'm using a resurrected equivalent of a speed grip... cobbled together from two units of the 'bay. So there's four places to fire the shutter, and one shot misfire at this early date in my messing with this camera... isn't bad.

Over-all, I wanted to thank the folks here for their help in working out a process. This one works. And it will probably help extend the life of my resurrected scanner... the November project that took three or four trips to the doctor to get it running. Yes, the big bugaboo about the Nikon Coolscan 8000 (and probably 9000, too) is that the door where the frame holder enters the machine is cheesy plastic, but if it breaks off... and they almost all do over and over again... you're stuck. Servos connect the door with the scanner, so if there's no door to close, you're SOL. Fortunately in my case, my repair guy (Frank Phillips who has a site on ebay for repairs, is reasonably priced and very quick about it) has a substitute brass door and brass hinge that fits in and makes this thing virtually bullet proof. Frank is also a very, very good photographer... loved his shots of Venice and an great printer. Great news is that there is a mini-industry of tinkerers who've adopted these Nikon Scanners and make all kinds of replacement parts from PC boards, to doors, and more. And that's a good sign for the analog world. Hard part is finding these guys!

So if the project for 2017 was a return to film, the project for 2018 seems to be just settling in and using the equipment on hand. There's the opportunity to shoot and develop color, but I'm hoping that's no big deal. I'd like to learn something about the higher quality 6 or 8-ink digital printing B&W and doing it with an adapted or resurrected old Epson dedicated to the process... and maybe take a class to understand what I'm doing. But I'm thinking to reserve that for winter 2018-2019.... months and months from now.