Quantum Physics

Francesco_from_Rome · Feb 2, 2015

Vaughn said:
Francesco: is it actually the atom that is casting the shadow, or is it a field of probabilities? No need to answer -- above my head anyhow!

I'm not an expert, but from what I get reading the article (Dead Link Removed ) I think that we are as close to see the shadow of an (Ytterbium) atom as possible. Quoting from the paper:
"An optical image is a map of the effect of an object on the flux of photons from anillumination source. Absorption images originate from the localized depletion of photons byan object."

The probabilities enter in the game since you are actually "visualizing" the interaction of the photons with the atom (how much is probable that a flux of photon of given characteristics will be able to excite the atom? Hence the discussion about the properties of a scatterer - where in this context "scattering" is the term that physicists use to describe the photons hitting the atom).

Francesco

Francesco_from_Rome · Feb 2, 2015

Bill Burk said:
No. I could help you find videos explaining how to measure the speed of light using a microwave oven and a bar of chocolate.

But I am also curious and would pose the question: "Do the currently accepted theories about latent image formation and development use quantum mechanics to explain how it all works?"

I've found a modern description in the book by Tadaaki Tani, Photographic sensitivity: Theory and mechanism (Oxford University Press, 1995). The first chapter is readable on Google Books. It summarizes the process as follows:

when exposed to light a silver halide grain in a photographic emulsion forms a laten image center composed of a silver microcluster on its surface
a silver halide grain with a latent image center on its surface if reduced to a mass of silver in a developer
a grain without a latent image center does not change in a developer and is dissolved by a fixing solution
the smallest latent image center is composed of three or four atoms (...) the photolytic reduction and cluster of only four silver ions are needed to change the fate of 20 billion silver ions in a grain. The degree of amplification in this case is as large as five billion and is one of the most important reasons why silver halide photographic materials achieve their high sensitivity.
A single silver atom, a dimer, and a tetramer of silver atoms are called "latent preimage", "subimage" and "image centers" respectively. A preimage center is unstable, and subimage and image centers are stable. (...) A threshold exists between a laten preimage center and a sub-image center in steps for the formation of a latent image center in terms of light intensity. Thus, any illumination whose intensity is not strong enough to form a latent subimage center does not change silver halide grains, even when it is repeated many times over a long period.

I would say that a description which starts from the interaction of an electron (e-) and a single ion (Ag+) and which has a threshold of intensity of illumination to form the clusters, bears the hallmarks of quantum physics.

So for me the answer to your question is "yes".

By the way, I got curious and I am considering to buy this book

Francesco

Steve Smith · Feb 2, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
They understand it through math

Why do Americans do math, whereas we do maths? Can we multi task?

Steve.

Nodda Duma · Feb 2, 2015

Steve Smith said:
Why do Americans do math, whereas we do maths? Can we multi task?

Steve.

We only count on the one hand while the other hand holds the crayon. So "math" singular.

Francesco_from_Rome · Feb 2, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
That is a highly "renormalized" view, however, which doesn't address the actual physics driving it.

Michael I am unsure if you refer to my post, if I'm wrong please tell me.

The description that I made was very high level (and I am not an expert in the field, I am an high-energy-field-theorist-turned-to-molecular-dynamics, so I couldn't simply say "yes" without referring to actual references). But from what I see the description is in quantum mechanical terms and not at the classical/chemistry (for the sake of generalization) level. Of course, if I got it wrong, please feel free to correct so that I'll learn better. As I said, I got curious so I am considering an order for that book. What I reported was only what was available in the preview.

Francesco

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2015

Steve Smith said:
Why do Americans do math, whereas we do maths? Can we multi task?

Steve.

Poppy cock! Of course not! You can't even spell color right or drive on the right side of the road, how can you be expected to multi task much less get math correct. No wonder George Washington and a bunch of ragamuffins beat you at Yorktown!

pdeeh · Feb 2, 2015

As I understand matters (or maybe matter), my film is, along with everything else, made of string.

If nothing else, this may explain why I sometimes get into a knot about photography.

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2015

The quantum mechanical view of photography, just as with other quantum effects, is so complex that it is easier to view it as a chemical effect such as Tadeki Tani did. And with that POV, researchers were able to go from the 3 electron to the 2 electron sensitization. Simplification brought understanding.

PE

Dinesh · Feb 2, 2015

wy2l said:
"Look, Sunny - most of you will be civil engineers, and we don't accelerate too many bridges to the speed of light!"

Wasn't he an advisor on the Tacoma-Narrows bridge?

Dinesh · Feb 2, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
cliveh, are you good with complex numbers?

He is great with inane questions!

cliveh · Feb 2, 2015

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Leica uses quantum mechanics heavily , the anomalous partial dispersion glass only designed with electron clouds resonance. It gives abnormal dispersion and finally the nonlinear transition of grades , shadows - less the light , higher the nonlinearity - and grains.

Thank you Mustafa, if true it answers my question.

Sirius Glass · Feb 2, 2015

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Leica uses quantum mechanics heavily , the anomalous partial dispersion glass only designed with electron clouds resonance. It gives abnormal dispersion and finally the nonlinear transition of grades , shadows - less the light , higher the nonlinearity - and grains.
That gives the three dimensional effect at the portraits. Well that is discovered by Leonardo and been called sfumato. You cant buy Mona Lisa for couple of hundreds of billion dollars but you can buy a Leica for 500 dollars. I can understand the people lives in rural places gives dime to it. I explained that with 10 pdf articles and in 70000 members , 3 of them looked. Come on forget that , lets altogether thank to Ilford for their commitment or lets pray to Jesuis for ferrania , come on people , you have no idea about art .

Help we need big shovels and hip boots to dig our way out of this pile!

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2015

Umut:

Reference to your post please?

PE

Francesco_from_Rome · Feb 2, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
The quantum mechanical view of photography, just as with other quantum effects, is so complex that it is easier to view it as a chemical effect such as Tadeki Tani did. And with that POV, researchers were able to go from the 3 electron to the 2 electron sensitization. Simplification brought understanding.

PE

PE, since you know that book, do you think it's relevant (or still relevant); or could you suggest / recommend other references?

Francesco

ME Super · Feb 2, 2015

Dinesh said:
Wasn't he an advisor on the Tacoma-Narrows bridge?

Which one - the 1940 bridge (destroyed by aeroelastic flutter), the 1950 bridge (still standing, and now carries the westbound lanes), or the 2007 bridge (carrying only eastbound traffic)?

cliveh · Feb 2, 2015

ME Super said:
Which one - the 1940 bridge (destroyed by aeroelastic flutter)

Actually it was galloping (as line engineers know) that destroyed this bridge.

pdeeh · Feb 2, 2015

But was it quantum galloping?

cliveh · Feb 2, 2015

pdeeh said:
But was it quantum galloping?

No just galloping.

Photo Engineer · Feb 2, 2015

Francesco_from_Rome said:
PE, since you know that book, do you think it's relevant (or still relevant); or could you suggest / recommend other references?

Francesco

Francesco, I know Tadeki personally and had dinner with him on his last trip to Rochester. He is a brilliant theorist as well as a brilliant film designer, but I have heard that the translation of his book into English did not shine even though his personal English is excellent.

I have not read it but have seen small portions and it seems good to me but some friends say it becomes overly technical along with the awkward translation.

Now, this is all hearsay as I do not have a copy and have not read large portions of the book personally.

So, take it as you wish. I would recommend it in spite of the comments above.

PE

Theo Sulphate · Feb 2, 2015

Francesco_from_Rome said:
four atoms (...) the photolytic reduction and cluster of only four silver ions are needed to change the fate of 20 billion silver ions in a grain.

This is amazing, but I don't understand how the four Ag+ change 20 billion others.

alanrockwood · Feb 2, 2015

Theo Sulphate said:
This is amazing, but I don't understand how the four Ag+ change 20 billion others.

D76, or Rodinal, or HC110, or...

Theo Sulphate · Feb 2, 2015

alanrockwood said:
Theo Sulphate said:

This is amazing, but I don't understand how the four Ag+ change 20 billion others.

Click to expand...

D76, or Rodinal, or HC110, or...

Oh...

...well, yeah, I guess it would if you did that.

Steve Smith · Feb 3, 2015

Sirius Glass said:
You can't even spell color right or drive on the right side of the road

But we do drive on the right side of the road - the left!

Steve.

mauro35 · Feb 3, 2015

Theo Sulphate said:
This is amazing, but I don't understand how the four Ag+ change 20 billion others.

In this video, starting at around 5:00, it is nicely and graphically explained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0mraHHyBrA

E. von Hoegh · Feb 3, 2015

cliveh said:
Does quantum physics play any role in film photography?

Quantum Physics plays every role in everything.

Quantum Physics

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