QTR and printer profile question

Hi I have just read a message from 'Pam' on Yahoo's Quadtone Rip forum that has got me even more confused! The question is about QTR and profiling and is very interesting but a little unsettling...

"The QTR QuadR1800 printer driver is linear & expects a grayscale B&W photo file to also be linear, without an embedded grayscale profile which has a curve. All of the std Adobe Photoshop grayscale workspace profiles like Gray Gamma 2.2 have a non-lineal curve which will influence internal contrast, particularly affecting shadow detail in any resulting prints made with QTR. To obtain match on-screen adjusted image attributes, you must use the Photoshop Edit command Convert to Profile and select the Destination Space: QTR-Gray Matte Paper (which should be available in the profile drop down list as it is installed as part of QTR)".

Is this true? If so, why I have I never read such fundamental instructions before?

Chris O Type said:

Hi I have just read a message from 'Pam' on Yahoo's Quadtone Rip forum that has got me even more confused! The question is about QTR and profiling and is very interesting but a little unsettling...

"The QTR QuadR1800 printer driver is linear & expects a grayscale B&W photo file to also be linear, without an embedded grayscale profile which has a curve. All of the std Adobe Photoshop grayscale workspace profiles like Gray Gamma 2.2 have a non-lineal curve which will influence internal contrast, particularly affecting shadow detail in any resulting prints made with QTR. To obtain match on-screen adjusted image attributes, you must use the Photoshop Edit command Convert to Profile and select the Destination Space: QTR-Gray Matte Paper (which should be available in the profile drop down list as it is installed as part of QTR)".

Is this true? If so, why I have I never read such fundamental instructions before?

Click to expand...

First of all why don't you post this question on the QTR forum?

Second Pam is only partly correct, Convert to Profile has nothing to do with the printer being an 1800.

Third, if you will read all of the documentation provided with the QTR download you will better understand why Roy Harrington suggest the gray scale conversion.


Don Bryant

Actually I'm grateful to Chris for posting this. I certainly don't always follow every forum that's out there. It's an issue that has been on my mind to think through clearly, and when it comes to profiles and color management, I find clarity to be hard-won... By my quick re-read of the QTR support materials this information certainly may be deduced, but I wouldn't say that it jumps out.

Chris's quote, BTW, did not make clear that "Pam" was quoting from another article as part of a question she has, not sharing her own knowledge.

My particular current interest is digital negs. What space do others use for their files? I know from correspondence with Ron Reeder that he does everything in Grey Gamma 1.8.

Ben

Ben Altman said:

Actually I'm grateful to Chris for posting this. I certainly don't always follow every forum that's out there. It's an issue that has been on my mind to think through clearly, and when it comes to profiles and color management, I find clarity to be hard-won... By my quick re-read of the QTR support materials this information certainly may be deduced, but I wouldn't say that it jumps out.

Chris's quote, BTW, did not make clear that "Pam" was quoting from another article as part of a question she has, not sharing her own knowledge.

My particular current interest is digital negs. What space do others use for their files? I know from correspondence with Ron Reeder that he does everything in Grey Gamma 1.8.

Ben

Click to expand...

If you are using a Mac use Gray Gamma 1.8, otherwise use Gray Gamma 2.2.

Registered users of QTR should post their QTR questions on the QTR forum. Especially when it pertains to lack of clarity of documentation.

Not that there is anything wrong about posting questions here but better answers about QTR questions are going to be had there, IMO.


Don Bryant

Don Bryant said:

Third, if you will read all of the documentation provided with the QTR download you will better understand why Roy Harrington suggest the gray scale conversion.


Don Bryant

Click to expand...

I've gone through the QTR documentation fairly thoroughly and have yet to come across any reference to gray image profile. Could you point me in the direction?

Don Bryant said:

If you are using a Mac use Gray Gamma 1.8, otherwise use Gray Gamma 2.2.

Registered users of QTR should post their QTR questions on the QTR forum. Especially when it pertains to lack of clarity of documentation.

Not that there is anything wrong about posting questions here but better answers about QTR questions are going to be had there, IMO.


Don Bryant

Click to expand...

Don,

I don't know jack about "color spaces", so help me out here. I've gone back to QTR on Yahoo and read Pam's post. As I said in my earlier post (above), I haven't come across a reference to color space or anything of the sort in QTR's (thin) documentation.

Also, I wasn't even aware of color space as pertains to working b/w images. I've since changed my setting to Gamma 1.8 (whatever that means) as I'm on a Mac. I've also opted to convert to QTR grey matte paper (image by image) prior to sending it out to the printer. An Epson 3800 in my case.

Please tell me if this makes sense and provide whatever elaboration/explanation you'd be kind enough to offer.

iserious said:

I've gone through the QTR documentation fairly thoroughly and have yet to come across any reference to gray image profile. Could you point me in the direction?

Click to expand...

Daniel,

Go to the Yahoo QTR group and do a search on "color spaces". This will dredge up lots of information about color spaces, CM, and QTR, including the post by Pam.

I assume we are discussing inkjet printing here, BTW.

You should spend time reading about Color Mamagement other wise you are just working blindly with digital printing. The extent you wish to delve into this is up to you, but I would reccomend Real World Color Management by Bruce Fraser.

If you have QTR installed look in the Docs and Stuff folder. Read the file ICC%20Info.txt. Roy Harrington has written a short article titled, "Grayspaces, ICC Profiling, Color Management".

Don Bryant

Don,

I think "dredging" accurately depicts the act of searching for "color spaces" on QTR-Yahoo. I take you at your word that somewhere, deep in the belly of those results lies useful information. However sifting through it exceeds my own stamina.

I've equally searched Google for "color spaces" and gotten some tutorials. I read through the article you suggested on QTR-Yahoo, Docs. Most of the information is very obscure (color model variants, blah blah blah). Why doesn't anyone talk to "4-year olds" anymore?
I'm printing digital negatives for output on an Epson 3800. I have a Mac running 10.5, a Noritsu 810, and PS CS3. I intend to print on silver-gelatin using QTR 2.6. Looking back at my original post I suppose I should've been more specific:

What is the LEAST I need to DO in order for their to be a "logical connection" (however that is defined in the world of quantum physics) between the edits I make to an image on screen and the way these are interpreted by the Epson/QTR+curve setup?

At the moment, I'm (guessing here..) making my edits, then converting the image profile to QTR Gray Paper just before printing the image. My understanding, based on the original post in this thread, is that QTR expects "linear" pixel data and that this is the "setting" that gives it what it wants. I have no idea what this does or how this works, or if it's even doing anything. Call it a precaution. What I do know is that it's a royal PITA. I have to re-save copies of every layered image prior to printing as the conversion flattens it.

I'm not interested in reading a book on color management (tonight that is). To be perfectly honest, I'm so damn frustrated with the complexity of this whole friggin routine that I'm almost sorry I even bothered with it in the first place. Right now, I'd like to stick to the minimums and see some results.

One last thing that bugs me - Why didn't Ron Reeder mention ANY of this ANYWHERE in his documents on digital negatives for B/W silver-gelatin or Roy H. in any of his manuals or user guides?

iserious said:

Don,

I think "dredging" accurately depicts the act of searching for "color spaces" on QTR-Yahoo. I take you at your word that somewhere, deep in the belly of those results lies useful information. However sifting through it exceeds my own stamina.

I've equally searched Google for "color spaces" and gotten some tutorials. I read through the article you suggested on QTR-Yahoo, Docs. Most of the information is very obscure (color model variants, blah blah blah). Why doesn't anyone talk to "4-year olds" anymore?
I'm printing digital negatives for output on an Epson 3800. I have a Mac running 10.5, a Noritsu 810, and PS CS3. I intend to print on silver-gelatin using QTR 2.6. Looking back at my original post I suppose I should've been more specific:

What is the LEAST I need to DO in order for their to be a "logical connection" (however that is defined in the world of quantum physics) between the edits I make to an image on screen and the way these are interpreted by the Epson/QTR+curve setup?

At the moment, I'm (guessing here..) making my edits, then converting the image profile to QTR Gray Paper just before printing the image. My understanding, based on the original post in this thread, is that QTR expects "linear" pixel data and that this is the "setting" that gives it what it wants.

Click to expand...

Daniel,

If you aren't making inkjet prints then don't worry about converting the profile.

Since you are interested in making silver gelatin prints from inkjet negatives then I would recommend that you take a look at Ron Reeder's website and download this file:

http://www.ronreeder.com/articles/RR3800-IlfordMGIV-Ag.zip

and take a look at this file:

http://www.ronreeder.com/articles/QTRManualv2.pdf

If you will PM me your e-mail address I'll send you an additional PDF authored by Ron which I think you will find helpful.

As Hannibal Lecter said to Clarice Starling, "All the information you need is in the file." Hopefully this will help your lambs stop screaming.

Don Bryant

Don Bryant said:

Daniel,

If you aren't making inkjet prints then don't worry about converting the profile.

Since you are interested in making silver gelatin prints from inkjet negatives then I would recommend that you take a look at Ron Reeder's website and download this file:

http://www.ronreeder.com/articles/RR3800-IlfordMGIV-Ag.zip

and take a look at this file:

http://www.ronreeder.com/articles/QTRManualv2.pdf

If you will PM me your e-mail address I'll send you an additional PDF authored by Ron which I think you will find helpful.

As Hannibal Lecter said to Clarice Starling, "All the information you need is in the file." Hopefully this will help your lambs stop screaming.

Don Bryant

Click to expand...

One more file:

http://www.ronreeder.com/articles/dignegs.pdf

Don Bryant

Don,

Screaming lambs eh? I guess I didn't realize how loudly they were screaming!

See here's the thing...

Like many other people, or so I'm guessing, my own debut in b/w's came a little over a decade ago. The "zero-to-sixty" part was easy. That is, when you don't know the first thing about film/developing, printing, etc. it's nothing short of a miracle when you see a spool of acetate turn into "beautiful" images! Anything you print looks fabulous! After all, you now now how to develop film and produce your own photographs!

This was really great up until I starting comparing my photos to some in magazines, galleries and to the work of other photographers. That's when I learned a new word - "crap!". And so began the less-glamorous "phase II". Enter the world of dodging and burning, contrast filtration, focus issues, composition, and the least lovable experience: knowing when to give up on an image no matter how much you love it.

The next years were spent honing skills, learning techniques, reading countless books and articles, buying/selling gear, doing sensitometric analysis on boxes upon boxes of film, all with no real change in result. In fact, over a decade had passed and I've had to take a single image or make a single print that I felt enthused about.

Enter "digital photography". A god-sent! It was no longer "necessary" to take a "winning photograph". Time had been rendered irrelevant. Anything could be done, undone, redone and so forth, or so I thought at the time. No, sadly a crappy photographer will always be a crappy photographer. It's just how it is. That isn't to say I'm giving up. No in the least bit. Like any other skill, photography is something that can be learned, honed and (hopefully) to some degree, perfected.

Printing well, that's another story. The advent of digital negatives brought great promise to simple folk such as myself. I can tell you this - Ansel Adams couldn't shoot a winning portrait to save his life! But his secret was his mastery of printing techniques. Ansel was a master printer and not a "master photographer". He made the most of his images in the darkroom. His monotonous subject-matter, another-rock-another-tree is, subjectively speaking, just plain boring.

On this premise I launched my crusade into the promised-land of digital negatives. I read Burkholder's book, tried his method, and lo-and-behold, a striking image was born at last! Perfection? Not by any stretch of the imagination. However, the potential was real. There could be no doubt. And so the quest expands. Researching/buying the "right printer", learning photoshop, buying media/inks, adapting input methods (in my case, buying an LS-9000 film scanner) and the least lovable, decoding the QTR method of printing b/w negatives. The variables seemingly endless.

Only in the last few days have I made any "real progress", and by that I mean having created a QTR profile/curve that produced a digital negative which printed with real progress. However, the quest, as I've come to call it, seems to be more in line with an artform then a science. And I suspect that at least in part, the reason QTR/digital negatives are so poorly (or "thinly") documented is for the lack of any true empirical method that goes beyond the basics.

To top it off - now this new thing? "color spaces"?

Yea.. I guess you could say the lambs are screaming.

Don,

Thanks for the links - I've already read everything Ron Reeder has put out on the subject and will probably stop short of a restraining order in my barrage of emails to Roy Harrington. Actually I'm kidding - Roy was very nice and has been more then helpful.

Back to the original question (2 or 3 posts ago), am I going about things the right way? I mean converting to QTR Matte Paper prior to printing? My color space (for Gray) is set to 1.8 Gamma (I'm on a Mac).

Why would you say color space is "irrelevant" (I'm paraphrasing) if all I want to do is print digital negatives?

Feed the lambs Don!

iserious said:

Don,

Thanks for the links - I've already read everything Ron Reeder has put out on the subject and will probably stop short of a restraining order in my barrage of emails to Roy Harrington. Actually I'm kidding - Roy was very nice and has been more then helpful.

Back to the original question (2 or 3 posts ago), am I going about things the right way? I mean converting to QTR Matte Paper prior to printing? My color space (for Gray) is set to 1.8 Gamma (I'm on a Mac).

Why would you say color space is "irrelevant" (I'm paraphrasing) if all I want to do is print digital negatives?

Feed the lambs Don!

Click to expand...

For digital negatives you aren't using color management so no conversion is necessary!

Seriously if you iserious take the time to read all of the information available, make cribb notes if necessary, to start understanding how QTR works. It does take a lot of mental effort, but Ron has laid out all of the procedures for you so take adavantage of his efforts.

Don

Don Bryant said:

Seriously if you iserious take the time to read all of the information available, make cribb notes if necessary, to start understanding how QTR works. It does take a lot of mental effort, but Ron has laid out all of the procedures for you so take adavantage of his efforts.

Don

Click to expand...

Don,

I read everything Ron Reeder has put out on Quadtone Diginegs. The information is rudimentary at best (and I'm being nice here). After more then a week, I'm throwing in the towel. Sandy pointed me in the direction of Mark Nelson's PDN system. I read your posts (either here or elswhere - my memory's shot) basically cheering it on. I started a thread in Digital Negatives asking for some basic info on this system. If you'd be kind enough, I'd be much obliged.

Oh...

Having checked out the website (pdn) and searching on here and google goes without saying.

iserious said:

Don,

I read everything Ron Reeder has put out on Quadtone Diginegs. The information is rudimentary at best (and I'm being nice here). After more then a week, I'm throwing in the towel. Sandy pointed me in the direction of Mark Nelson's PDN system. I read your posts (either here or elswhere - my memory's shot) basically cheering it on. I started a thread in Digital Negatives asking for some basic info on this system. If you'd be kind enough, I'd be much obliged.

Oh...

Having checked out the website (pdn) and searching on here and google goes without saying.

Click to expand...

PDN is a fine system and I'm a registered user. You'll need to spend a few bucks to get a copy but you can then join the PDN Yahoo forum and ask questions if and when you need to. I also like the new Curve Calculator II software.

Good luck if you decide to use it.

Don Bryant

Don,

How does this system (PDN) work, in a nutshell?

iserious said:

Don,

How does this system (PDN) work, in a nutshell?

Click to expand...

Daniel,

1) Determine the minimum printing time with the substrate you are using to print on.

2) Print the Color Density Range Palette at that time to determine the blocking color to produce a white tone.

3) Print a tonal palette with that color at the minimum printing time. After the TP dries read the patch densities with a densitometer or scanner and plot the values using Curve Calculator I or if you use Curve Calculator II the plot will be done for you. This will generate a set of adjustment curve points which you can use to generate a Photoshop Adjustment curve. If you use CC II, CCII will write the curve file for you. Please note that Curve Calculator I requires you to use Microsoft Excel to plot the adjustment curve, CCII does not.

4) Print the Tonal Palette again with the derived adjustment curve applied to confirm that the curve is viable. If it is you are ready to start printing.

That's the process in a nutshell.

Mor later, gotta go.

Don