PyroGallol (1,2,3-trihydroxybenzene) Material Safety Data Sheet

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/TR/1,2,3-trihydroxybenzene.html

Bottom Line: don't swallow it! Don't breathe the Dust! Don't get the Dust in your eyes! Don't take a bath in it!

Pretty much the same as the MSDS info for Hydroquinone, Catechol, Metol, Amidol, Glycin and many other common photographic developing agents

What next we should be afraid of di hydro mono oxide as well? After all Dana Point in Ca. was so afraid of it they in a city council meeting banned the substance from their city.

I'm in a safety profession. A lot of the MSDS data sheets assume a massive spill like a tanker truck disentigrating on an interstate highway.

Before you go ballistic over pyrogallol, look at the one for Lava soap.

Steve

Anything in excess is harmful, including excess.

Besides, I didn't bring it up in the first place, it was mentioned as being toxic by Anchell and Troop and on a scale of toxiciity including HQ and other chemicals, it is not very good for the human body.

There are others worse such as Mercury and Cadmium, but I'm sure Aggie will agree that even Cadmium toxicity is somewhat overblown.

PE

It's called common sense. Every so often on here someone gets a burr up the wrong spot and deci9des everything is toxic and dangerous. BTW Di hydro mono oxide is plain old water. Dana Point California a couple of years ago heard that the chemical name was a toxic susbstance and did ban it from the city. It was a kid in HS that set them straight as to what it really was. Use regular precautions. It is never good to breathe in dust. That goes fro the dry forms of the chemicals. But you are not going to die from using it. I had photo lab tech that went around behind me and told other students that I was going to kill them since I was using a dangerous substance. I was bleaching with potassium ferricyanide. Yes cyanide gas can be given off, if you mix it with an acid, but not with water. That didn't matter the word was what set him off not the facts. Some people want to preach gloom and doom and go over board. Think lawn darts. Think of saccaharin (sp) which took tests in the lab over two years where they fed those rats the equivalent of 9000 that is nine thousand cans of artificially sweetened soda. At that amount it will cause cancer. how many people or organisms in the real world will be ingesting 9K's worth of soadas per day? COMMON SENSE. Use gloves, it won't hurt to do that and it gives peace of mind. If you don't have a chemical hood to mix powdery chemicals in, and some of the really nasty wet ones, do it outside where mother nature ventilates. Clean up spills. Do Not drink the chemicals. Do not bath in them. Don't be afraid of them. Many of thos long drawn out chemical names have ordinary names as well that are very inoquious. I will say this though, run from toulene.

Aggie, I have thought about soaking exposed prints in a dilute cadmium bath before putting them in the developer. You have any experience with this?

No Avandesande, I got a degree in Molecular Bio Chem in 94 to prove to others and myself I really did have a brain. It was organic chem based and other than getting it, I didn't go further with it. There are many really good chemists here such as ole, and even Jorge. I don't know Ron, but he has been impressing me lately with his knowledge. What I learned most is that too many people are scared of by a word and often times urban legends connected with them. Like has been pointed out the MSDS sheets are geared toward massive exposures. It is also geared towards the worst case scenerio. Worst case scenerio if you are driving is that you will be killed. How many of us shy away from driving becasue of the worst case scenerio? We learn how to handle that car and deal with what may arise. Working with the chemicals we do, if someone is really stupid in handling them can cause harm. With proper knowledge and common sense handling, we are much safer than sitting in a car.

Interesting idea with the cadmium by the way. I would not have an inkling about it. I haven't even thought about where to get the cadmium from. Maybe I can recycle and extract the cadmium out of the hair that falls out of my head. (hair dye)

Aggie, you can buy cadmium chloride on ebay.
I was thinking of making a 100-ppm bath of cadmium, and presoaking the (exposed) paper in it. This might have the effect of replicating the effects of cadmium as it used to be in paper years ago.
The nice thing about this would be that the only cadmium going down the drain would be carriover from the original solution, probably <1 PPB

Aggie, most of the chemicals we use are "organic chemistry". i did inorganic mostly, which may be why I understand the historic iron blue developer better than Pyro?

But has been said repeatedly: All chemicals can be dangerous if used to excess and handled carelessly, and most chemicals are safe when handled safely. Allergies are worse; Metol contact dermatitis can teach you a lot about handling and washing in a very short time. I don't have that, but a few other "funny allergies". I can tell if anyone has peeled an orange in a room within the last four days, for example...

I will be very careful with mercury and lead compounds, but if I decide I need them I'll use them. Sam for just about everything else.


BTW, a synonym for "potassium ferricyanide" is "potassium hexacyanoferrate". I think it's much better since it hides the "cyano-" safely in the middle, just like in the chemical itself!

It is simple common sense handling these things. In powdered form one should use at minimum goggles and a dust mask, probably to be safer a very simple respirator with a chrcoal filter. Once in solution they are much safer to handle, but gloves are still a good idea. Clean up all splashes and spills to prevent the dried solution from becoming airborne dust.

I started using a respirator when handling catechol (and similar compounds)after I accidentally poisoned myself by inhaling fumes from the raw compound.
But I still use Pyro and catechol in raw form to mix developers. You just need to treat the stuff with respect. Also, always, always keep all hazardous compounds under lock and key if you have kids in the house.

Aggie, I agree with you completely about the fear of chemicals and thank you for the nice comment. I have worked with chemicals most of my life, starting in photography at about 12 and being rather senior right now. I'm still here and so far only natural processes appear to have aged me.

Ole and Jim are right as well. Some of the worst chemical preparations are those containing mercury and lead as well as pyro. My experience and the data at EK indicated how bad they are. Organic solvents are murder on the kidneys but you need massive exposure to begin to have problems.

The public fears the unknown and to them chemistry is a 'black hole' that is deep dark and mysterious. It scares them and people make a living feeding on those fears.

I've been using Cadmium lately in my tests. I have no results to report so far. They are ambiguous. I would guess that it would have to be placed directly in the emulsion when you make it to have any useful effect. In the case of Cd, you have to be careful of the dust or of getting the chemical into an open wound. Don't eat it or drink anything containing cadmium. Gee, that kinda makes sense to me. Otherwise it is rather harmless.

If you poured Cadmium Chloride and Copper Chloride on your lawn, the Cd is considered a No-No, but the copper is considered benign. However, at moderate concentrations, the Cd has no effect but the Cu acts as an herbicide and will kill grass, shrubs and trees. So, don't backwash your pool onto your lawn. The algaecides in the water (copper and others), if any, can kill your plants. Then again, Copper salts are found in Miracid which is an excellent plant fertilzer. Go figure!

So, you see it depends on chemical, concentration and sometimes oxidation state before you can call a chemical toxic.

Here is another for you. If you read up on EDTA it will scare you silly being a 'toxic chemical', but it is used intravenously in cases of heavy metal poisoning. How can it be a toxic chemcial and still be injected intravenously puzzles me.

Well, enough rambling. I do believe in a clean environment, having lived in Japan for a while. I saw how their industry 'worked' and how bad the air and water quality was. I see how other countries don't seem to care and are able to sell cheaper products by ignoring the consequences of pollution. I see our environment improving and I hope we can strike a safe balance with good education that will allow us to practice photography in the way we have become accustomed without paying a heavy penalty for using chemicals.

PE

I am an organic chemist by training and agree with many of the assessments made earlier in this thread. Chemistry is a fantastically complicated subject and it's easy for those with little experience to be "freaked out" by it. At the same time, it's important not to be cavalier about safety. In academic research settings, the chemistry being carried out is almost always "new" and MSDS's are usually not available. The attitude we try to convey to new students is that you should always treat chemicals with respect; to handle everything as if it were toxic, unless you know otherwise; and to plan ahead by imagining everything that could possibly go wrong during an experiment and figuring out (in advance) what you'll do if it does. I think that a lot of these principles can be applied to darkroom chemistry, as well.

In chem lab at WVU we had an instructor who maintained that you could give any chemical a taste test with the tip of your tongue. I taste-tested glacial acetic acid one day by accident. We had a large jug of it with a blow tube for getting small samples without trying to pour out of the huge jug. I didn't notice that the jug had been filled to the point that the other end of the blow tube was beneath the surface. When I let up on the pressure, I got a mouthful. I was very upset at that lab instructor.

Although it has all been said before, some readers might not be aware that pyrogallol is present in small quantities in tea, smoked fish and smoked meat. A summary appears in

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Photo Engineer said:

Anything in excess is harmful, including excess.

Besides, I didn't bring it up in the first place, it was mentioned as being toxic by Anchell and Troop and on a scale of toxiciity including HQ and other chemicals, it is not very good for the human body.

There are others worse such as Mercury and Cadmium, but I'm sure Aggie will agree that even Cadmium toxicity is somewhat overblown.

PE

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Metal refrigerator shelves used to be plated with cadmium. Many people were seriously poisoned (some died) when they used the shelves as barbeque grills.

Boric acid is more poisonous when absorbed directly into the blood through abraded skin than it is by ingestion. This is the reason why it was removed from various baby products. It can "cure" diaper rash permanently! It is important to read the MSDS for the three routes of entry into the body; inhalation, absorption, and ingestion.

It is would be unusual for Metol/Elon to now cause dermatitis since the method of manufacture has been changed for some while and phenylenediamine is no longer a contaminant of the final product. It was the phenylenediamine that caused the skin problems.

Gerald Koch said:

Boric acid is more poisonous when absorbed directly into the blood through abraded skin than it is by ingestion. This is the reason why it was removed from various baby products. It can "cure" diaper rash permanently! It is important to read the MSDS for the three routes of entry into the body; inhalation, absorption, and ingestion.

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Boric Acid solution is what is used when you have a ulcerated sore to draw out the infection. I worked with many patients that would be treated thusly: clean the site of the ulceration gently, place a small square of guaze over the wound, pour a quarter (coin) size amount of boric acid over the guaze. wrap tightly with plastic wrap, seal edges with tape. Next morning we would take the dressing off the patient and the wound would be much better.

Boric acid is also in the stuff they put in newborns eyes. I have never heard of it being a poison. But then I wouldn't drink the stuff either.

Boric acid has little or no antiseptic properties and is no longer recommended for that purpose. Anyone who doubts this should ask their physician.

Years ago a drop of a very dilute solution of silver nitrate (not boric acid) was placed in babies eyes immediatly after birth. If the mother had gonorrhea the resulting infection cause result in blindness. Now an antibiotic is used instead.

Thanks Gerald I didn't know these things. It was a boric acid type thing put in my kids eyes. The hospital said it was standard practice to put some sort of ointment in the babies eyes and I had the choice of the silver nitrate which I had heard was not good, and the boric acid stuff. I had no option as to not having a thing put in their eyes. I even had C- Sections so the need was not there for this. Plus I DID NOT have a VD.

But wasn't arsenic that they used long ago to treat malaria? Things do change.

Aggie said:

Thanks Gerald I didn't know these things. It was a boric acid type thing put in my kids eyes. The hospital said it was standard practice to put some sort of ointment in the babies eyes and I had the choice of the silver nitrate which I had heard was not good, and the boric acid stuff. I had no option as to not having a thing put in their eyes. I even had C- Sections so the need was not there for this. Plus I DID NOT have a VD.

But wasn't arsenic that they used long ago to treat malaria? Things do change.

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Aggie, an organo-arsenic compound was used for syphillis.

Man-tan and other organic tanning agents contain some rather toxic compunds.

I rembember the cadmium refrigerator shelve problem and the advice in newspapers not to use them on your BBQ.

During WWII, the government victory garden program suggested that people eat rhubarb leaves in salads. A few people died of oxalic acid poisoning, which is in the leaves but not in the stems.

Tomatoes though were once considered very poisonous, and one early Victorian novel featured a murder based on poison by tomato. Then the Italians or someone discovered the truth. And now we have Olive Garden restaurants everywhere.

The list goes on and on both ways.

PE

Arsenic, antimony, and mercury compounds were used to treat syphilis. AFAIK, the classic treatment for malaria was quinine which can cause deafness when too much is given. Gold has been used for rheumatism but can cause allergic symptoms. Organic arsenic coumpounds are still used to treat various parasitic diseases in man and heart worms in dogs. The mortality rate from these compounds is 2-3%.

I sometimes wonder how people survived when the treatment was as bad or worse than the disease.

The foliage of tomato plants, potato plants and other solanaceous plants does contain toxic substances - like solanine, atropine, nicotine, etc., etc. This may be where the tomato (fruit) toxicity story got started.

The record of side effects in even modern medications is rather depressing.

CellCept, used for organ transplant patients can cause leukemia and melanoma to occur as possible side effects, so if you need a new heart, you can get one but might die of one of these side effects instead. You would just die with a healthy heart (albeit someone elses).

Medicine and chemical toxicity are imprecise and vague areas. Some people react violently to minor contact with some medicines or chemicals and others can tolerate high doses.

PE

The Datura plant is very poisonous, but a very weak tea is a good in a pinch analgesic if you are in the wild. Same goes for the bark of a willow tree.

I think I'll sit back and reap the rewards of a nice cup of foxglove tea. That is one old wives remedies that really did turn out to be good. It is waht digitalis (heart med) is made from. Goes along with the story of grandmas fat ankles.

I took survival training and learned that the white film on the inside of the Willow bark is asprin I believe. I know it works. - My favorite wild tea in California would be Yarrow - it tastes great and cures anything. ... Old Indian tale ... I know you can make developer out of Tylenol and Lye - I wonder if one can make it from willow bark ... Asprinol?

Aggie said:

The Datura plant is very poisonous, but a very weak tea is a good in a pinch analgesic if you are in the wild. Same goes for the bark of a willow tree.

I think I'll sit back and reap the rewards of a nice cup of foxglove tea. That is one old wives remedies that really did turn out to be good. It is waht digitalis (heart med) is made from. Goes along with the story of grandmas fat ankles.

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fhovie said:

I took survival training and learned that the white film on the inside of the Willow bark is asprin I believe.

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The latin name for the willow tree is salix, hence salicylic acid which is the agent in the bark. This is both an organic acid and a phenol. This is very tough on the stomach causing a lot of irritation which is why we use the ester acetosalicylic acid which causes less irritation.

Datura grows wild here in Florida and at least once a year some kids hear about its hallucinatory effects and manage to poison themselves. Very easy to overdose on this plant.