Pyrocat: Versions and Mixing Directions

sanking · Jul 12, 2009

sanking submitted a new resource:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) - Pyrocat: Versions and Mixing Directions

Pyrocat – Versions and Mixing Directions

I am attaching mixing directions for various versions of Pyrocat, including –HD, -M, -P, -MC and -PC. I am indebted to Pat Gainer for his advice and recommendations for mixing the glycol based versions of Pyrocat, including Pyrocat-HD, -MC, and -PC.

Pyrocat-HD is the original Pyrocat formula and is still the most popular judging by sales and questions I get about it. The other formulas, which include Pyrocat-M and Pyrocat-MC, and Pyrocat-P and...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Jim Noel · Jul 12, 2009

Thanks for the update.
Jim

Lee L · Jul 12, 2009

Sandy,

Thanks very much for taking the time to post this in one place.

Lee

Jeremy · Jul 12, 2009

Can we make this an article or "sticky" post? Thanks for putting this all in one place, Sandy.

mikebarger · Jul 12, 2009

It is in the articles section under staining developers

john_s · Jul 12, 2009

Sandy, there's an error "dichromate" should be Carbonate.

sanking · Jul 12, 2009

john_s said:
Sandy, there's an error "dichromate" should be Carbonate.

Thanks. I corrected it.

As a carbon transfer printer I have dichromate on the brain.

Sandy

john_s · Jul 14, 2009

I had never before seen the alternative mixing directions for Pyrocat-MC (without a little water). Is the list of ingredients just those in the list under the heading "Stock A" or should one use some TEA as well?

Could that amount of heat (250degF=120degC) do some damage to any ingredient? I have mixed some formulas at lower temperature than recommended by allowing lots of time for dissolution (a week in the boot/trunk of the car on long trips). Would this be worth a try for this formula?

sanking · Jul 14, 2009

john_s said:
I had never before seen the alternative mixing directions for Pyrocat-MC (without a little water). Is the list of ingredients just those in the list under the heading "Stock A" or should one use some TEA as well?

Could that amount of heat (250degF=120degC) do some damage to any ingredient? I have mixed some formulas at lower temperature than recommended by allowing lots of time for dissolution (a week in the boot/trunk of the car on long trips). Would this be worth a try for this formula?

This is the first time the alternative method has ever been suggested. Pat Gainer tried it a few days ago and said that it worked, so I decided to recommend it. The high temperature will not damage any of the ingredients so far as I know. I have mixed pyrocatechin, metol and ascorbic acid before at this temperature and there was no problem. You don't need any TEA or water mixing this way.

I suspect that you could mix at a lower temperature with a hot plate stirrer but have not actually done so. Pyrocatechin and ascorbic will definitely go into solution at a much lower temperature, not sure about the metol.

Sandy

gainer · Jul 19, 2009

I think my report to Sandy was a little garbled or something. My experiment used a 100 ml of glycerol (also callsed glycerin) to hold the Metol and ascorbic acid. Heat it to 250 but no higher than 300 F.This heating drives the water form the hygroscopic glycerol. Now add 4 grams of ascorbic acid, stir it well and add 2.5 grams of metol. The result should be a clear yellow-orange soultion which will remain clear as it cools. Now add 50 grams of catechol and enough propylene glycol to make a liter. Heating helps dissolve the catechol, and it won't hurt to make it hot enough to boil off any water that might be in the glycol. The stock solution becomes considerably redder when the catechol is added.

You may find other uses for the glycerol solution of Metol and ascorbic acid. I made a double batch just so I'd have some to play with. I used the extra to make a water based Pyrocat MC stock just to see how long it would last. I'll tell you a year from now how it faired. Its pH is about 3, which should help it keep a while.

I don't think the glycerol mix is a simple solution. For one thing, only 1 gram of Metol should have remained dissolved on cooling. I have my own ideas about what chemical reactions may be going on between the H2SO4 of the Metol and the glycerol at 250 F but I rely more on pracrice than on theory, especially if there are two or more theoretical explanations.

Bruce Osgood · Jul 19, 2009

THANK YOU SANDY!

And Patrick, thank you as well. This is a big undertaking and I really appreciate your work and finally bringing all the posts and updates to one (two, counting Gadgets) page.

I really appreciate it.

sanking · Jul 19, 2009

gainer said:
I think my report to Sandy was a little garbled or something. My experiment used a 100 ml of glycerol (also callsed glycerin) to hold the Metol and ascorbic acid. QUOTE]

Pat,

No, the report was not garbled -- I just misread it and did not notice you were mixing first the metol ans ascorbic with glycerine and then adding the glycol. Thanks for the correction.

Sandy

wildbillbugman · Jul 20, 2009

Thanks Sandy,
The two-part developer method is something I had not read about HD. I wonder if varriatios in time and/or concentrations would yield any usefull variations in contrast,etc.
Bill

gainer · Jul 21, 2009

Illustrating Pyrocat MC.

These photos show why I like Pyrocat MC. They are on 35 mm film. The detail is shown in the spine of a book on the shelf between the easy chair and the snow dog portrait. I used 1:1:50, 8 minutes for the FP4+ and 9 minutes for the Arista EDU 400 Supreme at 73 F. The Arista was slightly overdone.

gainer · Jul 21, 2009

I forgot to mention that these photos were scanned from 8x10 prints of most of the negative. The overviews were digitally reduced. The details were scanned at high resolution from small portions of the photo print about a centimeter wide, which makes them about a millimeter wide on the negative. I used no sulfite anywhere along the processing line.

sanking · Jul 22, 2009

wildbillbugman said:
Thanks Sandy,
The two-part developer method is something I had not read about HD. I wonder if varriatios in time and/or concentrations would yield any usefull variations in contrast,etc.
Bill

Yes, changing the time and/or concentrations will give useful variations. Here is what I posted in another thread about that.

1. I would recommend that you simplify matters by not changing the time in either Solution A or Solution B. But if you change the time stick with it as it will simplify the other adjustment you can make.

2. Contrast is controlled by the amount of reducer that can be absorbed by the emulsion in Solution A. Assuming you stay with 6 minutes and 75F, using a stronger dilution will increase final negative contrast, using a weaker one will reduce final negative contrast. In other words, if 1:20 is the norm, a 1:10 dilution will give you more contrasty negatives, a 1:40 dilution will give negatives with less contrast. I think 1:10 is a good starting point for tank development with intermitten agitation, 1:20 is for rotary agitation.

3. Effective film speed is controlled by the time in solution B. What happens is that the reducer in the emulsion is quickly used up in the highlight areas, and since it can not be replenished as in normal single bath processing, the negative builds contrast rapdily when it goes into the solution, but in about three minutes all of the reducer is used up so that the build up of density in the highlights stops. However, the negative will continue to build up density in the mid-tones shadows throughout development, which increases effective film speed. So if six minutes is the norm for Solution B, four minutes will give less effective film speed, ten minutes will give more effective film speed.

Sandy King

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 22, 2009

For the divided option, how long is the recommended bath in solution B?

Very interesting read, Sandy. Thanks for posting.

sanking · Jul 22, 2009

Thomas Bertilsson said:
For the divided option, how long is the recommended bath in solution B?

Very interesting read, Sandy. Thanks for posting.

Hi Thomas,

I have been using six minutes in both Solution A and Solution B at 75F with the 1:10 dilution for Fuji Acros, rating the film at EI of 50. Less time in B will reduce film speed slightly, more time will increase it slightly, but I think six minutes should be about right for most films.

Sandy

Peter De Smidt · Jul 22, 2009

Sandy,

Do you recommend the same development scheme for TMX 100 as you do for Acros? (I.e. two bath, six minutes each in A and B, 1:10 dilution at 75F?)

sanking · Jul 22, 2009

Peter De Smidt said:
Sandy,

Do you recommend the same development scheme for TMX 100 as you do for Acros? (I.e. two bath, six minutes each in A and B, 1:10 dilution at 75F?)

Peter,

With normal processing Fuji Acros tends to take a bit longer to reach the same contrast than TMax-100 so I might suggest you develop the Tmax less, say 5+5 at the same temperature and dilution.

Sandy

Peter De Smidt · Jul 22, 2009

Thanks Sandy. I'll give it a try.

Mahler_one · Aug 7, 2009

Sandy: Where can one purchase the Pyrocatechin? I did not see it at Art Craft or Formulary.

Ed

Mahler_one · Aug 7, 2009

Sorry....did not know the name was Catechol...obviously available at PF and others. My mistake.

Mahler_one · Aug 8, 2009

Sandy: I reviewed your instructions for mixing Pyrocat HD, and I noted the 50 degree F suggestions for part A. How important is that temperature, i.e., it can be hard to get temperatures that low in certain areas of the country.

Ed

PhotoJim · Aug 8, 2009

50 C sounds more likely. That's a fairly standard developer mixing temperature.

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