Pyrocat Semi stand development problem

Willie Jan · May 26, 2008

I have a problem with semi stand development. The result looks like this one i found on apug.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I use a jobo tank and fuji across 120 format film.
What I do is a 3min presoak, after that insert the 1:1:150 dilution of pyrocat HD. Initially i invert the first 15 seconds. after that leave the tank until 8 min. after that 1x inversion. And after 16 minutes i poar out the developer and stop/fix the film.

I do the same with fp4+ on 4x5 in a 4x5 jobo tank, and do not see these problems.

Could it be that the jobo tank reals of the 35/120 format have some kind of capilair adhesion working (I do not know the exact english words..) at the side where the film hits the real?

Or are these air bubles?

Ian Grant · May 26, 2008

You've got air bubbles in the developer, trapped at the edge of the spiral, and the semi-stand development doesn't have the agitation to remove them.

Sometimes tapping the tank after the inversions can help.

Ian

Uhner · May 26, 2008

Yes, that appears to be air bubbles.

I would try using more solution, and agitate rather vigorously for the first minute. If the problem persists - clean your reels and try rotating your reel when you agitate (if this is possible with your tank).

Ian Grant · May 26, 2008

The reels can't be rotated in Jobo tanks, unlike Paterson tanks.

This problem occurs even when the tank is filled with much more than the minimum needed. David B had a similar problem recently, and I have occasionally had the same. I suspect the right wetting agent in the developer might alleviate the problem, but it has to be non foaming or it could make things worse.

Ian

Willie Jan · May 26, 2008

i will try more initial inversions and tapping. Never had these problems with initial 1 min inversions and after that 1 inversion each minute for 10 min development.

Uhner · May 26, 2008

A few weeks ago something happened to my tap water. It started to contain large amounts of small bubbles which, of course, over time form large bubbles that has a tendency to cling to my reels and leave marks on 120 film when agitating by inversion (I have no problem with 135 or sheet film). Not even borderline violent “tapping” of the tank after each agitation cycle will free all of the bubbles from the reels.

Since I don’t have a viable source of distilled water I tried rotating the reels, a technique I have not used since I learned the basics of film development on an old Johnson tank in the late eighties… For some reason this technique solved my problem.

However, I must mention that rotating the reels can lead to other problems. A friend of mine tried the same technique in order to solve the very same problem, but he has had severe problems with uneven development and streaking.

Leon · May 26, 2008

Do you use a wetting agent while your films are still on the reel? I had exactly the same problem with my pyrocat. through a process of elimination, I traced it back to one problem - an accumulation of ilfotol wetting agent on the reels. Despite running the old reels through the dishwasher and boiling them to try and get them clean, I couldnt get rid of the problem, so I cut my losses and bought a whole new set of reels and from then on, I removed the film from the reels before the final wetting agent rinse and I've never had the same problem again.

I am 100% convinced it was due to the wetting agent - and the problem looked exactly the same as the scan provided in the link in your OP. I dont think it was anything to do with air bubbles

I think you'll find several threads here that refer to the same problem and that come to the same conclusion as me.

Willie Jan · May 26, 2008

Leon,

Yes i do use a wetting agent when they are on the real.
I will try using a new real next time.

Ian Grant · May 26, 2008

Leon, I think perhaps what you've found is co-incidental, and may have more to do with wear of the reels. David B in a similar recent thread tried using new reels and found it still didn't cure the problem.

I've been doing a lot of research for a couple of on-going projects, and reading a lot of Patents etc. Commercial developers can contain a number of additives including Calgon and wetting agents to help overcome problems with the varying qualities of tap water. Certainly Agfa Ansco, Agfa, Kodak and others have patents detailing using various wetting agents in developers, and some of the Eastman Kodak work is within the last 10-15 years.

When we make up Pyrocat HD (and other developers) we add nothing other than the essential chemicals required for the formula, and in the vast majority of cases that is all that's required. However in certain circumstances we can still get problems with air-bubbles, and this is why adding a wetting agent could be important ant, but the amount has to be carefully controlled - too much and you could get foaming during inversion agitation, too little and it's ineffective.

One major reason I'm convinced it's due to the developer is it doesn't happen when I use commercial developers like Xtol. The water I use here in Turkey is very hard, and so us the water when I'm back in the UK. A little bit of experimentation is required to find the true root cause of the problem.

Ian

Leon · May 26, 2008

Ian - I started using clean reels that have not come into contact with wetting agents and it stopped. If i use my old reels, i get the strange edge marks, if I use my new clean reels, I dont. Same make of reels.

But as you say, I get no problem if I use non-staining developers (Home mixed or proprietary) so I guess (and it is a pure guess) it's something to do with the catechol not liking the residual wetting agent.

I guess I've found that to be pretty conclusive. Either way, I no longer get edge marks on my negs so that makes me a happy bunny. If Willie has success the same way, he'll be happy also. If not, different cause for the same problem and back to the drawing board for him.

Wolfgang Moersch · May 27, 2008

This bubble problem can appear (from time to time), if the developer is poured into the tank over the funnel.
Air-bubbles sometimes stick in the spiral above and prevent development. The consequence is uneven development or smaller zones of less density. In this case only the right edge of the negative is concerned. You can avoid the phenomenon when you first give the developer in the tank. The spiral with film and pipe is lowered into the developer, lift up twice, lock the tank, light on, continue as usual.

Ian Grant · May 27, 2008

Yes, that's what David B resorted to, well almost. Obviously this is the ideal solution but this only works if you are processing in a darkroom, and is useless if you aren't. My darkroom is a few thousand miles from where I process my films.

There has to be an alternative.

Ian

Tom Hoskinson · May 27, 2008

Leon said:
Ian - I started using clean reels that have not come into contact with wetting agents and it stopped. If i use my old reels, i get the strange edge marks, if I use my new clean reels, I dont. Same make of reels.

But as you say, I get no problem if I use non-staining developers (Home mixed or proprietary) so I guess (and it is a pure guess) it's something to do with the catechol not liking the residual wetting agent.

I guess I've found that to be pretty conclusive. Either way, I no longer get edge marks on my negs so that makes me a happy bunny. If Willie has success the same way, he'll be happy also. If not, different cause for the same problem and back to the drawing board for him.

I found that scrubbing my (Hewes Stainless Steel) reels in hot water with a tooth brush and Bon Ami got rid of all the gummy wetting agent residue - - - no more problems now!

Leon · May 27, 2008

Tom Hoskinson said:
I found that scrubbing my (Hewes Stainless Steel) reels in hot water with a tooth brush and Bon Ami got rid of all the gummy wetting agent residue - - - no more problems now!

glad that worked for you tom, mine are plastic and I cant seem to get them clean for love nor money

Larry H-L · May 27, 2008

I have had great luck eliminating air bubbles by letting my tap water stand overnight in a jug, and then heavily tapping the sides of the jug the next day, before mixing the Pyrocat.

Jim Noel · May 27, 2008

Leon's problem and his solution are not that unusual, just unrecognized. Several years ago we had the same problem with both our steel and plastic reels, as well as SS sheet film hangers at the college where I teach. By running them through the dishwasher w/o detergent, scrubbing them with a stiff brush, and once again running them through the dishwasher we were able to remove the remains of the wetting agent, Photo Flo.

Since that time we have not allowed student to place the reels or hangers in wetting agent, LFN, and have not had a recurrence of the problem.

Willie Jan · May 28, 2008

i do not think its a air bubble problem because i never had these problems until some weeks ago.

m_liddell · May 28, 2008

I consistantly have this problem with Exactol Lux and have tried everything I can think of to avoid it. Now I just compose accepting I will need to crop a small amount off the top of the frame

Interestingly, it only presents itself when there is bright sky in the frame - all other negs are perfect.

Semi stand seems to make them worse as you'd expect.

Leon · May 28, 2008

m_liddell said:
I consistantly have this problem with Exactol Lux and have tried everything I can think of to avoid it. Now I just compose accepting I will need to crop a small amount off the top of the frame

Interestingly, it only presents itself when there is bright sky in the frame - all other negs are perfect.

Semi stand seems to make them worse as you'd expect.

I'm interested to know if you use a wetting agent, or have used one on the reels you use for your film (assuming you use reels)

sanking · May 28, 2008

Has anyone mentioned that when using stand or semi-stand development a water pre-soak of a few minutes is good practice? This will eliminate or minimize the possibility of air bubbles. When the emulsion is first wetted there is a fair amount of out-gassing and it is better to have this take place in the pre-bath than in the developer.

Sandy King

Ian Grant · May 28, 2008

Sandy, what you've just written makes sense, I'll give that a try.

Ian

Leon · May 28, 2008

sanking said:
a water pre-soak of a few minutes is good practice? This will eliminate or minimize the possibility of air bubbles.

yup - standard practice in my darkroom

Willie Jan · May 29, 2008

sanking said:
Has anyone mentioned that when using stand or semi-stand development a water pre-soak of a few minutes is good practice? This will eliminate or minimize the possibility of air bubbles. When the emulsion is first wetted there is a fair amount of out-gassing and it is better to have this take place in the pre-bath than in the developer.

Sandy King

I always presoak my films for 3 minutes.
First it is wat you have written about out gassing,
second it will warm up my tank to the right temperature.

m_liddell · May 29, 2008

Leon said:
I'm interested to know if you use a wetting agent, or have used one on the reels you use for your film (assuming you use reels)

I use photoflo but I think I also had the same problem with a brand new hewes reel (I thought the cause may have been the plastic reels), but I can't be sure.

I have also tried pre soaking but it made no difference at all.

df cardwell · May 29, 2008

OK, my curiousity is aroused.

Accepting that out gassing creates the potential for air bells,
(and why not ?) I wonder what are the factors which contribute to detectable bells ?
Because I DON'T get them !

1. Outgassing creates the potential for bells.

2. In 40 years of active professional photography,
and thousands of images, I've never detected the presence of airbells.

3. I print full frame plus black border, so they would be pretty evident.

4. NO PreSoak (why I don't presoak is not germain)

5. Steel 35mm & 120 reels (kindermann, nikor, hewes)

6. Sheets in trays, 7.6 liter tanks on hangars, Combi tanks.

7. 'Minimal agitation' for 40 years, in Rodinal, metol/carbonate, ABC pyro, PyroCat.

8. Conventional agitation patterns in every developer anybody else has ever used.

9. Distilled water, tap water, though out the USA, Canada, and Europe.

I've NEVER used PhotoFlo in the Developer,
I'm clean but not obsessive.

Maybe it is like lightning strikes and meteorites,
I just haven't been hit YET.

But there OUGHT to be something ELSE.

WHAT AM I DOING WRONG ????

(Please be polite and assume that
either me or my clients would have noticed airbells
or other negative defects)

Pyrocat Semi stand development problem

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