pyrocat hd & staining devs in general - best with stock that stains well?

Hi all,
A search on this gave a lot more comments on what film people use with pyrocat hd rather than something more specific to my question.

I know that pyro developers are staining, and that the stain is part of the benefit. However, does that mean that one should only use pyro with film stock that tends to stain well? Or will I still see the benefits of the increased acutance and, in the case of HD, close-to-box speed and can use it across the board while I have it?

For instance, I have read that Pan F does not stain well. Should I still use pyrocat HD with it? Or would I be "wasting" the developer and should instead use it with film that stains better (such as Efke or Fomapan 100/200, which seems to stain better from what I did find)?

thanks.

I'd read reports of "doesn't stain well" closely. Does the author understand that stain from some developers, such as Pyrocat, is very hard to see with the naked eye?

If you think you need the effects of a staining developer, by all means try one - and the Pyrocats are good ones. I can't think of how you would be wasting the developer - only you can say if you like the results of its use.
juan

The stain color with some (Pyrocat HD for example) is not as pronounced as with other films. But I believe even with panF you get some benefit. Foma, ERA, FP4+ and HP5+ are the ones I've used most recently with PyrocatHD and all stained to some degree. Visually, the stain on HP5+ (120 roll film) looked to be the least. But then I don't have a UV channel densitometer. When printed it still seemed to have a bit softer "feel" than when I used Rodinal so there you have it. Personal experience without hard data to back it up!

Seriously, PcatHD is pretty cheap as pyro formulas go so don't fret it. And in general, I'm getting about -1/3 from box speed except for Foma100 120 that I've used in pinhole cameras. That I rate at 50 but really I think that is because I was rather lax in my computation of reciprocity so the -1 stop is just part of the correction. The Foma100 sheets I've run at 80 and been very happy.

Juan - thanks. I already have pyrocat HD. I don't "really" feel like I'd be wasting it - it's just a relative term re: whether it's best to save it for films that supposedly stain well rather than ones that don't. It is hard to see the stain (actually, when I scan it's really obvious before the monochrome setting kicks in).

allan

It is not fair to either the developer or the user to evaluate pyrocat stain visually. The stain of the base fog is often the most apparent, but not always the most effective in printing by blue or UV light. When one sees the print contrast reduced by a stained negative, one should be especially careful about visual evaluation. Contrast should be ihigher on graded paper than on unfiltered VC, but the contrast is usually more affected by magent filtration.

A negative developed in Pyrocat MC, for instance, may show little base fog and look as if not stained, but if you view it by blue light and ordinary incandescent light alternately you will see the difference in contrast.

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that the more stain you have, the more the highlights are controlled and the finer the grain. I have heard otherwise, tho'.

Pan-F does not show a heavy stain, but you may be able to tweek some benefit from a staining dev; if nothing else, you may get some compensating effect from the high dilution of these devs.

I still have a fair amount of APX 100 & 400 (35mm) in the freezer and I really like these films in a staining dev, mostly Pyrocat HD and WD2D+. These films show a lot of stain and I get very nice grain and creamy highlights.

What I'm saying is opinion, nothing scientific and I have not tried all films in all staining devs.

Perhaps Sandy King, the creator of Pyrocat HD will let us know what is really going on; always good to have his input & knowledge.

Thanks for the additional opinions. I know they are opinions, and that I need to do what I find the best for me. Don't worry - I'm not looking for absolutes here.

I ruled out APX 100 since I don't have any and don't want to invest in film that has been discontinued (even though there is a decent amount out there). But I might get some Foma and see how that goes, since apparently that stains well. Pan F was just an example - I have other developers for it, certainly, which I like to use.

thanks.