Pyrocat HD Just did my batch of 8 negatives - Issues?

[rwboyer]

Well,

I devised a workable (until summer) way of dealing with the 15 degree F temperature differential and tested it a couple of times today so I developed what was to be my last batch of calibration negatives for the "new" film. I already decided that I will not be using it for an upcoming project but...

I have a box of the stuff so I am going to use it for something.

Here is my issue. I was testing Efke PL 100 as a cheap alternative to my usual Kodak. The trouble I am having with the PL 100 in Pyrocat HD is that it seems virtually impossible to get increased contrast out of it. Of course I am using the 1+1+100 dilution and I know that I can make it more active. I will give that a try but... Even at +35% I can't seem to reach a workable N+ density.

Any Pyrocat users out there having issues with contrast expansions with PL 100?? Is it me?

RB

 

[wclark5179]

I use formulary products & haven't had any trouble.

Happy Holidays.

 

[rwboyer]

???

 

[wclark5179]

Sorry if I didn't understand your ?

Perhaps I'm new in this area.

 

[rwboyer]

Do you do a lot of contrast expansions of PL 100 in Pyrocat HD?

I sort of have no idea by what you meant when you said "I use formulary products and..." Are you saying that you do this all the time with PL 100 and Pyrocat HD? If so what is your experience with say getting zone VI expanded to zone VIII ? for printing on a typical grade 2 silver paper? Like what % additional time?

RB

 

[sanking]

Do you do a lot of contrast expansions of PL 100 in Pyrocat HD?

I sort of have no idea by what you meant when you said "I use formulary products and..." Are you saying that you do this all the time with PL 100 and Pyrocat HD? If so what is your experience with say getting zone VI expanded to zone VIII ? for printing on a typical grade 2 silver paper? Like what % additional time?

RB

RB,

I have tested PL 100 several times with Pyrocat-HD and in my tests the film had very good expansion capability, as good or better than FP4+.

That was some years ago and it is possible that the emulsion has changed, but for my money it was one of the best films out there for expansion.

Sandy King

 

[rwboyer]

Sandy,

Any recollections on a % increase in development time - I use intermittent agitation, not continuous.

It is either the film is resisting expansion or my batch of Pyrocat has gone south since last time I used it. It is only about 2 mons old in glycol?

RB

 

[wclark5179]

OK perhaps I shouldn't have posted here. My photography is from a vantage point of making photographs of people who like what I do so much as they are willing to pay for how I can make them beautiful. My mentor, coach & friend was Monte Zucker.

I've just started to dip my toes into the staining developer territory. Here is a pdf file that I'm currently reading:

http://www.viewcamera.com/pdf/2006/pyro.pdf

I've been using Formulary Wimbereley Developer #2, Verson D+and have had some nice results with my Hasselblad & Rolleiflex cameras.

Obviously I need to learn a lot. Hence my participation on APUG.

However I come with some experience of having a pretty successful photography business.

Have a great 2010.

 

[sanking]

Sandy,

Any recollections on a % increase in development time - I use intermittent agitation, not continuous.

It is either the film is resisting expansion or my batch of Pyrocat has gone south since last time I used it. It is only about 2 mons old in glycol?

RB

RB,

If you are not getting enough contrast try the 2:2:100 dilution. My tests with this dilution indicated the following, with continuous rotary agitation.

SBR Time in Minutes
9 5
8 6:30
7 8
6 10
5 15


SBR 7 is normal contrast, 9 is about N-2, and 5 is about N+2.

Sandy King

 

[Eric Rose]

I use PL 100 for about 90% of what I do and have had no issue with either expansion or contraction. I process my sheets with hangers and do semi-stand development.

 

[rwboyer]

I use PL 100 for about 90% of what I do and have had no issue with either expansion or contraction. I process my sheets with hangers and do semi-stand development.

Sandy I assume you are using 75 F ?

Eric - What are you seeing in terms of % increase in time between N and N+ development with semi stand. With the results I am getting I would need to develop like 2 weeks in 1+1+100 ?

Maybe my batch of Pyrocat went south. Never had that happen but it seems to poop out real quick. In my tests I did my N+ tests first in a fresh tray containing 1 liter at 75 F hmmm. I haven't done film with it in about 2 weeks my last film was TRI-X at N that worked fine.

Souping the PL 100 for 35% longer than the TXP is doing not a whole lot.

RB

 

[c6h6o3]

PL100 just explodes with contrast for me in any staining developer. What paper did you print them on? Maybe the negatives have more contrast than you think.

 

[Eric Rose]

I do all my film processing at 68F. At an SBR of 12 I develop for 15 min and for an SBR of 5 I soup it for 47 min's. I assume you are changing your asa's depending on what SBR you have. I you aren't then that might explain your results. I find the "normal" asa for PL100 is 50.

 

[rwboyer]

PL100 just explodes with contrast for me in any staining developer. What paper did you print them on? Maybe the negatives have more contrast than you think.

Something is very wrong - I can tell from looking at the negatives there is almost no contrast difference. I can tell from my scan that there is no contrast.

I am not even going to bother to print these on general run of the mill Ilford VC.

RB

 

[jgjbowen]

You won't learn anything until YOU PRINT THE NEGATIVES!!! Much of the additional contrast added by Pyrocat is in the form of stain and isn't always visable to the naked eye. Print your negatives.

But in the future, I would suggest 2:2:100 for Pyrocat HD and no more than 4 8x10 negatives per liter of developer. I use TMAX 400 (the old stuff) and normally develop in 2:2:100 at 68 degrees for 13 minutes with the good old shuffle through the tray once every 30 seconds method of development. Oh yeah, I print on Azo. There is LOTS of information regarding Pyrocat and various films on the Azo forum.

Good Luck,
John

 

[vdoak]

I echo John B.'s comment, to really see what you have, print on paper. The color of the stain affects the contrast. (On my scanner all PL100 negatives in Pyrocat HD look the same if scanned in B&W. The only way I can begin to approximate the contrast I get on Ilford papers or Foma papers is to scan in full rgb color then convert to gray scale.)
For me to get n+1 is 33%. My ei is 80. I develop at 68f semi-stand with 1:1:100. N is at 15 min. n+1 is 20min agitation is at 33% and 66% of time. If I am to be critical of my own work with PL100 and Pyrocat I could probably stand to reduce my ei to 64.

Hope this helps

 

[juan]

Before I switched to BTZS, I rated PL100 at 50. I developed in Pyrocat HD, and found that with both brush developing and extended minimal agitation, it took much longer to develop than Kodak TMX. And my TMX expired in 1996, so, even frozen, I would think it had lost some speed. Are you developing long enough? A PL100 negative at SBR 7, 80F, EMA, Pyrocat 1.5:1:150 takes about 25-minutes.

You mentioned extreme temperatures. What are they? I found that PL100 is susceptible to reticulation if the temperature of the various solutions varies greatly. I made tests so that I can develop at whatever room temperature is. Could your temperature adjustments be at fault?
juan

 

[Dan Henderson]

RB,

If you are not getting enough contrast try the 2:2:100 dilution. My tests with this dilution indicated the following, with continuous rotary agitation.

SBR Time in Minutes
9 5
8 6:30
7 8
6 10
5 15


SBR 7 is normal contrast, 9 is about N-2, and 5 is about N+2.

Sandy King

Sandy: I plan to mix up some pyrocat for daylight tank processing of FP4, probably at 1:1:100 and agitating at the beginning, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 intervals. Is there somewhere that I can look up times for this sort of routine?
Thanks,
Dan

 

[rwboyer]

You won't learn anything until YOU PRINT THE NEGATIVES!!! Much of the additional contrast added by Pyrocat is in the form of stain and isn't always visable to the naked eye. Print your negatives.

But in the future, I would suggest 2:2:100 for Pyrocat HD and no more than 4 8x10 negatives per liter of developer. I use TMAX 400 (the old stuff) and normally develop in 2:2:100 at 68 degrees for 13 minutes with the good old shuffle through the tray once every 30 seconds method of development. Oh yeah, I print on Azo. There is LOTS of information regarding Pyrocat and various films on the Azo forum.

Good Luck,
John

Thanks for the advice -

This is not my first time around the block with Pyro developers or Pyrocat. This last development session I observed behavior with a new film that was not consistent with my observations over years of screwing with this.

I am talking about a giant issue not a subtle one. I agree there are some things that need to be printed but this is not a case of subtlety. This is a case where there is no difference NONE viewing negatives side by side that have a 50% in development time. The liter of solution was to develop 8 4x5 sheets. My process lasted 32 mins from beginning to the very end and the temps as measured at the beginning and end were 75 F.

The effect I am seeing with this batch is almost like development gets to a certain point and then completely stops. Almost like a monobath process.

I am going to run another test today and test some theories I have.

RB

 

[sanking]

Sandy: I plan to mix up some pyrocat for daylight tank processing of FP4, probably at 1:1:100 and agitating at the beginning, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 intervals. Is there somewhere that I can look up times for this sort of routine?
Thanks,
Dan

Dan,

I suggest you use a 1:1:150 dilution for minimal agitation as weak dilutions tend to minimize streaking. At 72 F, with four agitation cycles, I would suggest the following times for FP4.

SBR Time in Minutes at 72F
10 20
9 25
8 30
7 35
6 45
5 75

Sandy King

 

[Dan Henderson]

Sandy: thank you for the information, and for all of the knowledge that you so freely impart here. I am sure that I am not the only one who appreciates it.
Happy Holidays,
Dan

 

[sanking]

Sandy: thank you for the information, and for all of the knowledge that you so freely impart here. I am sure that I am not the only one who appreciates it.
Happy Holidays,
Dan

Thank you, Dan.

Just be sure to run a test or two with the times before risking valuable negatives.

Sandy King

 

[rwboyer]

I just mixed up a batch of another pyro developer. (I wish I had another batch of Pyrocat but sadly I only have the raw materials for other stuff). I am going to run a quick test based on my experience with pyrocat and this other pyro developer to see if my pyrocat has gone south before I go nuts.

Yea I know the results will not be directly comparable but will give me a seat of the pants idea if my expectations for PL100 are way way off or my Pyrocat has bit the dust in some strange and not so wonderful way.

I do not do stand development based on a lot of the scenes I shoot so thank you for all of the data but I find it mind numbing (and probably impossible) trying to extrapolate my findings to a stand development process. I do admit that I may just be used to the way TMX reacts and that the PL 100 is so so so different that it has me all whacked out. But the negatives I am looking at are really really flat - this is nothing as subtle as needing a print to evaluate.

If my Pyrocat has gone south it has done so in a way that is really strange that I will have to try to reverse engineer - the stock solution is only 2mons old and there is not a lack of density - there is a lack of any separation. I am already into TXP times/temps with strange results with the PL.

I will post back and let you know at least seat of the pants what I find.

Thanks for all the input.

RB

 

[sanking]

I just mixed up a batch of another pyro developer. (I wish I had another batch of Pyrocat but sadly I only have the raw materials for other stuff). I am going to run a quick test based on my experience with pyrocat and this other pyro developer to see if my pyrocat has gone south before I go nuts.

RB

If you purchased the Pyrocat in a glycol kit from Formulary, or mixed it yourself in glycol, there is no way it would have gone bad in a couple of months. In fact, it is good for several years mixed in the glycol kit. To go bad in such a short period of time it would have to have been either improperly mixed, or contaminated.

If you have any sodium carbonate on hand you might prepare a 20% stock solution and use it at 5X the amount of the 75% potassium carbonate stock solution. This should indicate at least if Stock A is good or bad.

Sandy King

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have to agree with those who say you really can't judge your contrast results without printing the negs on photographic paper--ideally the paper you plan to use for the final print--even if you've used other pyro developers, because the visible color of the stain isn't the same for all pyro developers. I wouldn't do any further testing without making some proofs. Even if the proofs confirm your intuitions based on inspection of the negs, that will tell you something.