Pyrocat HD: I'm loosing patience.

juan · Aug 30, 2005

I've done it the way Ole does for a couple of years now. Measure out the water - measure out the carbonate and add it to the water, then add the "A". Never any problems. I use Arm and Hammer Washing Soda for the carbonate and buy the A solution materials from Artcraft.
juan

Guillaume Zuili · Aug 30, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
...thank you, I've developed the B neg from today at 1:1:100 to make 300mL working solution, thinking it might be the total volulme but, alas, the B neg is equally BLANK.

I'm afraid you don't have enough solution. With an expert drum, I always use 1 liter of working solution, whatever the number of sheet film.
Hope that helps
Guillaume

Ronald Moravec · Aug 30, 2005

I had the same happen with PF PMK. I opened the kit and did a run with my 4x5 Nikor tank. Everything was fine. The next day I got 6 clear negs in the same sealed tank using a full 36 oz of developer. When I diluted the A and B, it turned the proper colors indicating it was good. The Tank was clean and film shot was part of a batch shot processed the previous day that developed OK.

Jeremy · Aug 30, 2005

If you want a pre-mixed liquid kit, Bostick and Sullivan has one that works wonderfully and has tremendous lasting strength. I'm finishing up the 500mL bottles I bought in June of LAST YEAR.

Bruce Osgood · Aug 30, 2005

IN CONCLUSION

Shot the same image again today but made some modifications:

Backed up the back up. I shot, in addition to the FP4+ A & B a holder of BPF 200.

I processed 300 mL of 2+2+100 and again got blanks on both FP4 and BPH, though the FP4 does have a 'ghosting' of image.

This led me to think perhaps my shutter is off or my meter. So I developed the back up backups in RODINAL 1:25 to confirm that the Pyrocat was OK and the meter or lens is the problem. You guessed it: quite nice negs from the Rodi., considering I just thru together the Rodinal and developed both negs for 8 min. The FP4 rated at 100 and the BPF @ 200. I could print either one.

So I'm left to believe my Pyrocat went bad somehow, somewhere and I'll probably never know. Time to reorder new chemistry anyway.

Thanks for all the assistance.

roy · Aug 30, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
So I'm left to believe my Pyrocat went bad somehow, somewhere and I'll probably never know. Time to reorder new chemistry anyway.

I would go along with that. I have never experienced any problems with Pyrocat not performing.

sanking · Aug 30, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
So I'm left to believe my Pyrocat went bad somehow, somewhere and I'll probably never know. Time to reorder new chemistry anyway.

Thanks for all the assistance.

In your first message you wrote the following. "The first negatives (FP 4+) developed were printable and suggested some revisions in development from 9 minutes to 8 minutes to see what I would get. What I got was nothing."

Whatever happened would appear to have happened between the first negative that you developed, which as you say suggested some "revisions," and the second one, which was blank. In my opinion you did something to cause catastrophic failure between the first and the second time of develoment. Is it possible that you have confused one of the two Pyrocat-HD stock solutions with some other solution? There is nothing else that could explain, at least so far as I see, the failure to get any kind of density with the second development. Even if you had contaminated the solutions that would not have led to total failure of the developer within a few hours.

I personally have used both Formulary and B&S Pyrocat-HD and they both performed well. These people know how to mix chemicals and it seems very unlikely to me that the stock solutions themselves are at fault.

If it makes you feel any better, which I doubt that it will, I have made every mistake in the book in mixing both the stock and working solutions.

Sandy

Bruce Osgood · Aug 30, 2005

I wrote:
"So I'm left to believe my Pyrocat went bad somehow, somewhere and I'll probably never know. Time to reorder new chemistry anyway."

I didn't mean to imply in any way that I thought "went bad" was caused by anything other myself. Somehow I caused it to go bad

photomc · Aug 30, 2005

Hmmmmmm, well Bruce...I'm lost. Sounds like, as Sandy says, something catastrophic happened. Now this is not very scientific, but I find that sol. B weighs more (feels heavy) than sol A. - also have you poured the A into a clear container to see how it looks, plus get a measurement, and then do the same with B? This would at least let you know that the solutions are at the correct levels.

One other thougt, something I almost did but caught myself before doing so...if you have some Farmers it is usually marked A and B also, any chance that you could have grab the wrong one? Not trying to insult or anything, but since I came so close I know how easy it is to do. That why the Farmers is in different bottles than the Pyrocat...plus labels everywhere to remind me which is which.

Sorry to hear about the problems...but you will get them worked out and be happy you did....keep us posted on the progress.

gainer · Aug 30, 2005

For goodness' sake, test a sample of your developer working solution with a scrap of film before you use it on sheet film. Even if you don't use 35 mm, get a roll just for testing like this. Pyrocat is a fairly slow developer, but if a snippet of film does not get fairly dark in 3 minutes in room light, don't use it on a sheet of LF.

highpeak · Aug 31, 2005

Bruce, having fun yet? I think you do need somebody to check your darkroom
Joke aside, I do feel bad for what happened to you. I just ordered some PMK pyro from B&S, thanks to Jeremy for the info. If you want to try it, I will let you know when it get here.

Alex

sanking · Aug 31, 2005

gainer said:
For goodness' sake, test a sample of your developer working solution with a scrap of film before you use it on sheet film. Even if you don't use 35 mm, get a roll just for testing like this. Pyrocat is a fairly slow developer, but if a snippet of film does not get fairly dark in 3 minutes in room light, don't use it on a sheet of LF.

Pat suggests a very good practical test that will give you immediate feed-back. I was going to advise using a pH strip or meter to make sure the working solutions measured over about pH 10.9, but this simple test with film is much more direct, and can be carried out without the pH strips and meters. All you need is a snippet from a roll of 35mm B&W film.

Sandy

Steve Hamley · Sep 8, 2005

Folks,

Just became aware of the thread, but I've been having similar problems using 2:2:100 PF Pyrocat HD; blanks, extremely thin negs, and other inconsistencies. One shot was the same holder and composition, lens and shutter, times, the only difference being a filter (both with the same factor). One fine, the other blank.

Mixed a liter of PF 2:2:100, 1st fine, second thin, third even thinner. Mixed another 500ml 2:2:100, added it to tray and did a third. Even thinner, magenta cast to the 3 thin negs. Using BPF 200.

Steve

noseoil · Sep 8, 2005

This is a "one shot" developer. Are you using it for multiple developments? Mix fresh each batch, then dump. tim

Claire Senft · Sep 8, 2005

Good luck. Pyrocat HD has beren a remarkably tolerant developer for me. If you are mixing a&b together and then adding the water that could be the problem

Take your water and put it into a container for mixing, then add A. Then add B. I always use washing soda a put in the amount to the water that would be the equivalent of the B solution. If I tried to put that much washing soda into the stock solution I would get a very super saturated solution. I do not stock potassium carbonate.

Will S · Sep 8, 2005

Just to second Claire, that part seemed strange to me, that you would add A to B then add the water.....

I like the immediate color change that takes place when you add the B to the water+A. It looks like it turns amber/straw and then it slowly changes to something more clear again. I don't know why, I just find that cool.

I don't think anyone said this, but don't use the same dropper for both A + B if you are using a dropper. Keep them separate and label them, etc. I will defer to others who are far more knowledgeable than myself on these matters, but it sounds like you might have contaminated your A solution on your first neg. I'd get a fresh batch to make sure. Also, it is one shot. And make sure the tray is clean, etc. if you are tray developing.

I've had some problems with thin negs (which were my own fault) and once had some negs that were so contrasty they were completely ruined (my fault again of course) but I've never had completely blank ones. And this is using both 120 and 4x5 sheet. I only did about 25 sheets of PanF, but they came out fine.

Don't give up on it yet. For the money it is the best staining developer out there.

Good luck!

Will

Steve Hamley · Sep 8, 2005

Folks,

Just did 2 sheets Berrger 8x10 in 1 quart 2:2:100 Pyrocat HD mixed per above: add "a", then water (distilled), then "B", measured in a volute (as I always have, rinsed between solutions) so no cross contamination.

Results: same. First neg perfect, second, thin and pink.

It's clear the chemistry is bad, why I don't know. I may give the PF dry powder a whirl, otherwise it's time to look for another developer.

Steve

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 8, 2005

Steve Hamley said:
Folks,

It's clear the chemistry is bad, why I don't know. I may give the PF dry powder a whirl, otherwise it's time to look for another developer.

Steve

Whose chemistry are you using?

Are you mixing your chemistry "from scratch?"

With my "from scratch" Pyrocat-HD. I sometimes mix 4 liters of working developer, then develop 8 sheets of 8x10 (in two 4 sheet batches) when I develop in my slosher. I use either minimal or semi-stand agitation. I have seen no problems of any kind when I do this.

If I develop in tubes, I use the Pyrocat-HD as a one-shot (as previous posters have recommended). Mixing from scratch, Pyrocat-HD has to be one of the least expensive developers around.

BTW the Pyrocat "A" solution I am currently using was mixed from scratch early in 2004. I use Propylene Glycol as the solvent (not water) for the stock solution.

Steve Hamley · Sep 8, 2005

Tom,

Thanks for the info. I'm using PF (Photographer's Formulary) liquid chemistry, late 2004/early 2005.

I'm wondering if the problem is just that the solution is near the shelf life. Does anyone know what old PF liquid Pyrocat HD does?

Steve

sanking · Sep 8, 2005

Steve Hamley said:
Folks,

Just did 2 sheets Berrger 8x10 in 1 quart 2:2:100 Pyrocat HD mixed per above: add "a", then water (distilled), then "B", measured in a volute (as I always have, rinsed between solutions) so no cross contamination.

Results: same. First neg perfect, second, thin and pink.

It's clear the chemistry is bad, why I don't know. I may give the PF dry powder a whirl, otherwise it's time to look for another developer.

Steve

Steve,

What do you mean, first neg perfect, second, thin and pink?

Are you using the working solution twice?

If so, that is not the way Pyrocat-HD should be used. The working solution is a one-shot use and discard developer.

We do not and have never recommended that the working solution be used for a second time.

Sandy

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 8, 2005

I don't know what PF puts in it, Steve. However, Sandy King's stock solution recipe(my introduction to Pyrocat-HD) lasted me for about 8 months - and I used it up, it didn't go bad.

I went to the Propylene Glycol variation (yeah, I fell under the influence of Gadget Gainer). I wanted to mix a large batch (a liter) of stock concentrate "A" with a virtually unlimited shelf life. As it turned out, I've already used up the liter and need to crank up another one.

My WAG would be that the Phenidone concentration and/or effectiveness in the working solution is approaching the critical level.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have a few questions:

What agitation scheme are you using?

What is the color of the working developer as mixed?

What is the color of the working developer after a single sheet of 8x10 has been developed?

Bruce Osgood · Sep 8, 2005

I bought the kit from PF and had one good neg, the rest bad experience. There was much discussion that I 'corrupted' the B solution somehow and I accepted that as an answer.

I reordered the ingredients for part A with the intention to use Sodium Carbonate (84g/100mL) to make B.

As I am waiting for PF to send my order I made 500ml stock solution of B using Sodium Carbonate and tested one negative using the PF Part A. It was an improvement but when I went to make a second working solution my part B and solidified into a GOB.

So now I've gone to Adorama (B&H doesn't carry PF chemistry in the store) and bought 100g of Potassium Carbonate and still wait for PF to deliver Part A chemicals.

If this doesn't work I'll chuck the whole Pyrocat HD idea and use D 76. Now that's easy.

Oh yes, I do not mix A & B together and add it to distilled water (anymore). I add A to 3/4 of the volume, rinse the pipette, add B and then top off to desired amount.

lee · Sep 8, 2005

hi Bruce,

probably doesnt make any differece here but I do 20ml of Part A and pour it in to the 1 liter water. I then put 20 ml of Part b into the water so that the entire volumn is now 1040 ml. then I stir that up, I am using tap water and dot distilled water

I pre wash for 5 min using the Unicolor drum and motor base. then I pour out the water and add the pyrocat hd. then at the end of the time I pour out Pyrocat HD and use water to stop for 1 min then fix as usual.

lee\c

Bruce Osgood · Sep 9, 2005

lee said:
hi Bruce,

probably doesnt make any differece here but I do 20ml of Part A and pour it in to the 1 liter water. I then put 20 ml of Part b into the water so that the entire volumn is now 1040 ml. then I stir that up, I am using tap water and dot distilled water

I pre wash for 5 min using the Unicolor drum and motor base. then I pour out the water and add the pyrocat hd. then at the end of the time I pour out Pyrocat HD and use water to stop for 1 min then fix as usual.

lee\c

Hi Lee,
Your 1040 mL Liter, is that for one load of negatives? How many negatives do you do in the 1040? You don't use some, and store the rest do you?

Steve Hamley · Sep 9, 2005

sanking said:
Steve,

What do you mean, first neg perfect, second, thin and pink?

Are you using the working solution twice?

If so, that is not the way Pyrocat-HD should be used. The working solution is a one-shot use and discard developer.

We do not and have never recommended that the working solution be used for a second time.

Sandy

Sandy,

Thanks for replying. I mean that the first negative has the expected density and color; the second has thin shadow areas and the entire negative has a magenta/pink cast to it.

I use the developer as 1-shot, but if I have 2 negatives to do, I mix a quart and do two negatives one after the other in that 1 quart of solution. I do not reuse that solution.

Steve

Pyrocat HD: I'm loosing patience.

juan

Guillaume Zuili

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Jeremy

Bruce Osgood

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Bruce Osgood

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Pyrocat HD: I'm loosing patience.

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