Pyro-uno and 510 pyro

JW PHOTO · Apr 9, 2016

Is there really much difference in these two pyro formulas as to the end results and storage life between these two? I've never used either, but was just curious.

510-Pyro Formula

ascorbic acid 5g
pyrogallol 10g
phenidone .25g
Triethanolamine 100ml

PYRO-UNO
TEA (Triethanolamine) 80 ml
Ascorbic acid 1.4 g
Pyrogallol 3.4 g
Metol 0.4 g

TEA to make 100 ml

JW PHOTO · Apr 9, 2016

Michael,
I understand what you are saying and guess I was "feeling around" as to if anyone has actually tried both. When I looks at Jay's 510-pyro formula compared to Sandy's Pyro-Uno it looks like Jay's is much more potent. Yet they are both 1:100 dilution developers. Also, I often run across people using Jay's 510-Pyro, but have yet to find folks using Sandy's Pyro-Uno and was wondering if there was a reason. I'm a big user of Wimberley's pyro mixes and Sandy's Pyrocat-MC, but to be honest, I'd love a single mix pyro if it work as well. John W

jeffreythree · Apr 10, 2016

Interesting, I had not heard of pyro-uno. I might make a batch sine I have everything except more TEA. It looks like it has a longer development time than 510-pyro, after a bit of reading on it. Less pyro, more time, similar results?

JW PHOTO · Apr 10, 2016

jeffreythree said:
Interesting, I had not heard of pyro-uno. I might make a batch sine I have everything except more TEA. It looks like it has a longer development time than 510-pyro, after a bit of reading on it. Less pyro, more time, similar results?

Yes, that's what I thought also. I have enough chems and TEA to make both and suppose I could run a little test. I didn't want to start playing with these two developers since I'm happy where I'm at in the developer department, but curiosity killed the cat I guess.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 10, 2016

I seriously doubt that in a blind print evaluation one could tell a difference between the two. Yet people will argue endlessly as to which formula is better. This is true not only of staining developers but others as well

JW PHOTO · Apr 10, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
I seriously doubt that in a blind print evaluation one could tell a difference between the two. Yet people will argue endlessly as to which formula is better. This is true not only of staining developers but others as well

I truly believe you are 100% right, but won't know for sure until I try it. I have used Sandy Kings Pyrocat-HD and Pyrocat-MC and while Sandy himself says you probably can't tell the difference, I've settled on Pyrocat-MC and truly believe "THINK" that it has a better overall look. Some folks think I'm strange when I say I like DK-50 1+4 over D-76/ID-II, but I do. Different strokes I guess............John W

ritternathan · Apr 10, 2016

I've mixed up some Pyro-uno and if you want it to last a long time, don't mix it in 99% TEA but in 99% glycol. It will last longer this way and you can add as much TEA as you want as a part 'B' when you mix up a working solution.

JW PHOTO · Apr 10, 2016

ritternathan said:
I've mixed up some Pyro-uno and if you want it to last a long time, don't mix it in 99% TEA but in 99% glycol. It will last longer this way and you can add as much TEA as you want as a part 'B' when you mix up a working solution.

That kind of defeats the reason I'm looking into both of these developers. One solution + H2O is what I'd like. I can't understand why Pyro-Uno shouldn't have a fairly long (1 year at least) when mixed with 99% grade TEA? 510-Pyro is said to have a very long shelf life just the way it is and I would think Pyro-Uno shouldn't be that much different in that department.

ritternathan · Apr 11, 2016

Well, yes, they will last one year as long as they are in glass and there is not too much air. My experience is that the TEA just sort likes to oxidize anything it can. My TEA formulas have discolored within a month of mixing and turned tar colored within 6-12 months. They still work, but they do not seem as stable as similar glycol mixtures.

JW PHOTO · Apr 11, 2016

ritternathan said:
Well, yes, they will last one year as long as they are in glass and there is not too much air. My experience is that the TEA just sort likes to oxidize anything it can. My TEA formulas have discolored within a month of mixing and turned tar colored within 6-12 months. They still work, but they do not seem as stable as similar glycol mixtures.

That makes sense. As long as I can get close to a year it's find. If I happen to like either one and only mix 100ml batches I should use it up way before that. John W

Gerald C Koch · Apr 11, 2016

Some years ago when I was workihg with TEA/glycol based developers I found that despite what many formulas say about heating to get the chemicals into solution it really shortens their life. The organic chemicals will dissolve if one is patient and at room temperature. The alkalinity of TEA really chews up the developing agents. In developer concentrates that call for both TEA and glycol you can vary the activity of the developer by varying the TEA/glycol ratio. I finally found that the waterless homebrew developers were just too restrictive in what could be put in them. inorganic chemicals are not very soluble in either of the solvents. So you cannot use potassium bromide as a restrainer.

JW PHOTO · Apr 11, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Some years ago when I was workihg with TEA/glycol based developers I found that despite what many formulas say about heating to get the chemicals into solution it really shortens their life. The organic chemicals will dissolve if one is patient and at room temperature. The alkalinity of TEA really chews up the developing agents. In developer concentrates that call for both TEA and glycol you can vary the activity of the developer by varying the TEA/glycol ratio. I finally found that the waterless homebrew developers were just too restrictive in what could be put in them. inorganic chemicals are not very soluble in either of the solvents. So you cannot use potassium bromide as a restrainer.

Gerald,
I wouldn't think that heating the TEA would be necessary for either Pyro-Uno or 510-pyro like it is with glycol. I have a hot plate magnetic stirrer so mixing will get done to the full extent. These seem to be pretty simple, low ingredient formulas. As for a restrainer...........I have diluted solutions of Potassium Bromide and Benzotriazole, but probably won't need them with these two formulas.

Alan9940 · Apr 12, 2016

Straight from the man himself when mixing 510-Pyro, I toss the dry chemicals all together into a glass beaker, add the TEA, then heat in a pan of water on the stove top until chemicals have gone into solution; generally this takes about 1/2 hour.

JW PHOTO · Apr 12, 2016

Alan9940 said:
Straight from the man himself when mixing 510-Pyro, I toss the dry chemicals all together into a glass beaker, add the TEA, then heat in a pan of water on the stove top until chemicals have gone into solution; generally this takes about 1/2 hour.

Alan,
I take it you have no problems with 510-pyro as to storage/oxidation? I actually planned on mixing both very similar to the way you are doing it. I would put the heat setting on low and the mix rpm,'s on slow and let it go.

jeffreythree · Apr 12, 2016

Alan9940 said:
Straight from the man himself when mixing 510-Pyro, I toss the dry chemicals all together into a glass beaker, add the TEA, then heat in a pan of water on the stove top until chemicals have gone into solution; generally this takes about 1/2 hour.

Same here. My 510-pyro has turned dark, but development times are still the same. The only issue I have read about is overheating the TEA when mixing may decrease the developer's storage life.

Alan9940 · Apr 12, 2016

JW PHOTO said:
Alan,
I take it you have no problems with 510-pyro as to storage/oxidation? I actually planned on mixing both very similar to the way you are doing it. I would put the heat setting on low and the mix rpm,'s on slow and let it go.

Nope, no issues with storage. But, I do mix small quantities and store in brown glass bottles with Protectan to remove air. Also, I guess having small quantities on hand allows me to use it up before it goes bad.

JW PHOTO · Apr 12, 2016

Alan9940 said:
Nope, no issues with storage. But, I do mix small quantities and store in brown glass bottles with Protectan to remove air. Also, I guess having small quantities on hand allows me to use it up before it goes bad.

Alan,
I just made a 100ml batch of 510-pyro and will decant to three 30ml Boston brown glass bottles. If I fill right to the brim I can get almost all the 100ml in three. I'll test both 510-pyro and Pyro-Uno out this weekend and see what I come up with.

Alan9940 · Apr 12, 2016

JW PHOTO said:
Alan,
I just made a 100ml batch of 510-pyro and will decant to three 30ml Boston brown glass bottles. If I fill right to the brim I can get almost all the 100ml in three. I'll test both 510-pyro and Pyro-Uno out this weekend and see what I come up with.

Sounds like you've done about all you can for storage...I doubt you'll have any issues. I was worried about storing it at room temps--which, for me, is about 83F during the summer months--and Jay told me not to worry about it. I haven't gone a whole summer, yet, so I guess we'll see. Never used Pyro-Uno, but I like the simplicity and result of 510-Pyro; at least, for the films I've used it with.

I would love to hear what you think of 510, once you've had a chance to experiment.

ritternathan · Apr 13, 2016

I have used Pyro-Uno with metol and a version with P-aminophenol (.8g for 100ml in the place of .4g of metol). With both of them I got significantly less stain and smaller grain than with PMK, I think has to do with the use of TEA instead of metaborate.

JW PHOTO · Apr 13, 2016

ritternathan said:
I have used Pyro-Uno with metol and a version with P-aminophenol (.8g for 100ml in the place of .4g of metol). With both of them I got significantly less stain and smaller grain than with PMK, I think has to do with the use of TEA instead of metaborate.

I use mainly 120, 9x12cm and 4x5 so grain isn't a real big problem. I do hope these two pyro developers are good in the sharpness/micro-contrast department. If they are I might just make one of them my mainstay developer. I'm going to the town I was raised in tomorrow to do a shoot of and old train line so I'll have some decent subject matter to test them with.

Pyro-uno and 510 pyro

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