Pyro Plus Paper Developer

Alan9940 · Apr 18, 2015

Hello All,

I found this rather old post ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)) by Donald Miller describing an update to the PPPD that he originally formulated. Over the years, I have used on occasion a variation of the original formula posted by JB Harlin on his website. I would like to try the variation Don posted in the aforementioned link, but I'm a little confused. Therefore, requesting help from any APUG member who uses this particular variation:

The formula, as listed in Don's 1-3-2006 post, leads me to believe that all chemicals are mixed (in order, of course) into one solution. The original formulas (as posted on Unblinking Eye) and the Harlin variation mix a solution A and a separate solution B which consists of the sodium carbonate. This A/B solution is then mixed 1:1 for use. No citric acid is used in the Harlin variation. Following Don's updated formula, is it really mixed as a single solution or still two solutions? If A/B, which solution does the citric acid go into? Also, it seems that emergence time is pretty fast when compared to other paper developers such as Dektol. Is normal development time still 2 mins?

Thank you for any help provided.

Best regards,
Alan

gzinsel · Apr 19, 2015

You can mix in total or if you like, OR you may mix everything else except the Carbonate.The reasoning behind this is that the particular print you are working on may need need more contrast ( if you using graded, say like a half grade more) In that case you would add more carbonate solution to the working solution. The other reason people keep their carbonate solution separate from the "other stuff" is that it ALL keeps better separate ( longer in solution..)

I have tried this and variations of this formula and my personal findings is that it is not superior or equal to NON_CHINESE AMIDOL. But it does do better than Chinese Amidol, (Hell, even actual cow urine does better than Chinese Amidol) thats a joke. That is all printed on graded Chloride paper. As to the working properties on Chloro-bromide papers or even Bromide papers I can not say. For multi grade I see no benefit to using other than a metol/ hydroquine formula, most of them are designed for MQ and PQ. There are those out there who prefer Phenidone/hydroquine. go figure.
I also think that toning developers don't really work today due to the way photographed paper is engineered. IT MAY work, correct!!! you will get an image, But Toning developers ( which this is) does.t work as a toning developer. so ???????? why use it? when MQ or PQ give just as good results if not better.

Alan9940 · Apr 19, 2015

Thanks, gzinsel, for the clarification.

When printing typical silver gelatin prints, I use either Foma Fomabrom 111 Variant fiber or Ilford Warmtone fiber and soup it in D-72. However, I contact print my 8x10 negs on Lodima and was very dissatisfied with the results using the MAS Amidol formula. That's when I learned about Chinese vs English Amidol! The Chinese stuff, as you intimated, is TOTAL crap!! Even filtering it often to remove the "sludge" I still got these little black specks all over the paper which are not easily removed. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for ArtCraft to get English Amidol back in stock, but it seems like that's never going to happen. Therefore, I was looking for an alternative for Lodima when I remembered playing around with PPPD some years ago.

If you know of a reliable source for English Amidol, please pass it on! And, when I say "reliable" I mean a source that's not going to substitute Chinese Amidol and/or not disclose that it's Chinese Amidol like the first place I bought it.

gzinsel · Apr 19, 2015

sorry Alan, I do not know of any reliable good source for Amidol. I think Paula and Michael over at the Azo forum, there might be some kind people who might be able to help you. Since Amidol has "left the building" I am making salt prints, and carbon prints. Although, a few years back I did get some warm toned Adox paper and I found that paper to be pretty good. ( I was experimenting with Agfa 110, Ansco 110, Dupont 51-d, ID-24) . With enough dilution and extended times, up to 20 minutes, you could drastically alter the color from slightly warm black to green/brown, brown/tan to almost red. I haven't tried the new reg. Adox stuff. I might get some this summer. In terms of paper dev. for prints. I will probably go back to Ansco 130.
When i was printing silver gelatin it was efke graded.glossy and I had two formulas for Amidol one warm, and two, cool. SINCE BOTH are discontinued ( Amidol may come back!)I sigh was dissatisfaction and "do" something else.

Alan9940 · Apr 19, 2015

Thanks, gzinsel, I'll check over at the Azo forums, as suggested; though I'm not very hopeful that English Amidol is available from any source! I've looked pretty hard and haven't had any success finding it. Haha re "Amidol has left the building." This is so true! My wife keeps reminding me that I need to remember that what I'm doing in the darkroom is now on the "edge" of photography! Heck, even silver prints are now classified as an alternative process. I think my darkroom starts freezing over when I print platinum/palladium!!

Now that you've reminded me of Ansco 130 I may have to give that a try and see how it compares to my 'ole standby. I like mixing my own formulas fresh, as needed, but as you said some of them don't necessarily play well with today's papers. I refuse to toss in the towel though! As long as film and some way to get an image on to paper is available, I'll keep using it. One of the reasons I shoot primarily Ilford film is because they continue to support analog photographers; most recent was their special yearly run for ULF photographers. Ya gotta love a company that continues to support those that shoot 12x20!!

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 19, 2015

RE: Ansco 130 - I've been using it as my paper developer of choice for a while now and it has been playing nice with both warm-tone and cool-tone modern VC fiber papers. I haven't tried PPPD yet as I'd have to order the chemistry for it, so I can't comment on how well it works with VC paper.

c6h6o3 · Apr 20, 2015

For a while there I actually preferred the Chinese amidol because it seemed to yield greater dmax. But after about 10 years since I bought it (I have about 5# of it) it seems to have lost a bit of its punch. So I've begun of late to dip into the pound of Artcraft amidol that I have (pre-Chinese deal) and it seems just as good as ever. I ended up paying about $60 / lb. for Chinese amidol after packaging and shipping so I don't feel too bad about it. I know people who bought as much as 50 lb. of it and they're hatin' life. We all really were screwed on that deal.

I recently had the privilege of seeing dozens of prints by J.B. and Susan Harlin, who use J.B.'s modification of Miller's formula. The Azo prints by J.B. look as if they were developed in amidol and Susan's prints on Ilford Multigrade warmtone looked virtually identical to J.B.'s in terms of tonality and color. Since all the constituent chemicals are readily available, why not try it? From what I've seen J.B.'s formulation is every bit as good as the best amidol on both silver chloride and chloro-bromide emulsions.

Alan9940 · Apr 20, 2015

@TheFlyingCamera - Thanks for letting me know that Ansco 130 plays well with modern papers. I'm definitely planning to mix up a batch and see how it compares with the formula I usually use.

@Jim - I have used JB Harlin's variation of the Miller PPPD formula on Lodima; seemed very nice. I only stopped using it and started playing around with the MAS Amidol formula because of the awful smell of PPPD permeating my darkroom. Based on the odor of the raw chemical it seems that the Pyrocatechol is the culprit! I've never seen the Harlin's actual prints, but now that you've verified that it works fine on Ilford Warmtone (one of my two primary papers) I'm definitely going to have a go at it, again. Thanks!

Best regards,
Alan

DREW WILEY · Apr 20, 2015

I got my amidol from Artcraft. It's good quality. Don't know what I'll do with my Chinese amidol. It will develop fine; but due to the strong orange color in solution you can't see what is going on in the tray under the safelight, and then that orange stain seems to take forever to wash out of the paper. I might try filtering the amidol solution first, but basically gave up on it. Too much hassle. As for 130 developer, it's
like aging wine. I keep a bottle of glycin in reserve frozen, and at least one other under gradual use. As the powder oxidizes, slowly going
from a pale yellowish tan to light brown, the image stain itself gets warmer. Then it goes mocha, and you get even more effect, then a
deep chocolate color. But once it turns almost black, it stains the paper in general so heavily that it's almost useless. Therefore 130 can be
used for anything from an almost cold developer effect to quite warm, depending on the specific paper too, of course. Additional tweaks can be made by the relative proportion of KBr versus benzotriazole restrainer.

Alan9940 · Apr 20, 2015

Hello Drew,

You must have bought your Amidol from ArtCraft some time ago because they've been out of stock on the English Amidol for many months. I sent them an e-mail 2 months ago regarding when it may be back in stock and, basically, the answer was: Dunno when or if it will be available, again. If you buy Amidol from them today, you'll be getting the Chinese version!

Yeah, I found the orange stain from Chinese Amidol too much hassle! And, as I said in an earlier post I got these incredibly annoying black spots from, I assume, the sludge that forms!! To try and avoid this problem I filtered the developer many times during use; after say 1 or 2 prints. Life is too short to deal with all these issues when there are other developers available. I'd love to give the English variety a shot, but not to hopeful.

Best regards,
Alan

c6h6o3 · Apr 20, 2015

@Alan9940: I should also point out that your problem with amidol and Lodima may have been the Lodima. I don't know what grade you were using but the last run of grade 2 Lodima was ridiculously soft. I have a couple of negatives which were unprintable on Canadian grade 2 Azo, a notoriously soft paper. I'd tried to print them for 10 years and they were just too dense and contrasty. But they printed great on Lodima in Chinese amidol.

This is one of them. On any other paper there's no tone in the highlights of the rocks.

Alan9940 · Apr 20, 2015

Hello Jim,

That image certainly has some very nice tonality!

The Lodima I was using was grade 2 purchased about 1.5 years ago; don't know where this falls re your "last run" statement. The two main issues I had with both grade 2 and 3 was yellow/orange staining and black specks. I believe the staining issue might be resolved by using a stronger strength stop bath (per MAS suggestion, I might add), but I haven't tried it. By far, the much worse issue was the black specks! I never really resolved that one to my satisfaction and MAS didn't know, either. Oh, and he suggested that getting English Amidol would probably resolve my black specks issue. I'd love to test that theory, but English Amidol appears to by MIA!

Therefore, I wrapped my remaining Lodima paper supply and tossed it into the freezer. Haven't looked at it since. But, it looks like the PPPD may be a viable option and its cheaper. Can't argue with that...

Best regards,
Alan

gzinsel · Apr 21, 2015

Also the china Amidol does not work well with any of the chloro-bromide papers either. Ya, Its true Lodima is soft compared to Kodak Azo ( 1 grade), BUT the developer has So Many impurities it in. Like IRON, like say. . .. . .. the whole Periodic Table thrown in for good Measure!!!!!!!!!!!! ITs Garbage!!!!! I have been using Amidol for roughly 15 years. When I got Chinese, it was gross, it was like someone wiping their butt, and then smearing it all over my paper. IT'S TOTALLY OFFENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and its offensive that someone can actually saY TO MY FACE, THAT IT'S AMIDOL. It is a bold face lie, or gross perversion of the truth. I am still furious over this,, 2-3 after the fact. IF all injustices in the world, in the photo world, why any company, would sell a non reagent grade and NOT tell anyone, is wrong.. There should have been a class action lawsuit. I still can't believe people are still going around perpetuating the rumor the chinese Amidol is o.k. and blaming "that its the Paper" or "because your mom got a cold, who lives in Berkley!" or on your cat. The people who are perpetuating this rumor obviously DO NOT have a high standard, they are part of a crown of "GOOD ENOUGH" .

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2015

Hello Michael,

If it were me, I'd covet that pound of English Amidol like I do my old stock of Cranes Platinotype paper for platinum printing; that is, I'd pull it out only for those images that have the potential to sing!

Totally different somewhat unrelated question for all:

Can anyone give me the conversion between Sodium Carbonate, Monohydrate and Sodium Carbonate, Anhydrous? I'd like to mix up some Ansco 130; it calls for 78 grams of SC, Mono...all I have in stock at the moment is the Anhydrous variety. I e-mailed PF for help and was told to figure it out using the exchange rate in the back of the Darkroom Cookbook. I don't own that book so this isn't of any help to me!

Thank you, again, for any help provided.

Best regards,
Alan

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2015

Hello All,

Never mind regarding my Mono --> Anhydrous conversion question. I found the answer in an old thread.

Best regards,
Alan

Alan9940 · Apr 21, 2015

Hello Michael,

Thanks for your input!

Yeah, my Sodium Carbonate isn't too old, yet, and hasn't turned into a solid! Therefore, I'm sure it somewhere between anhydrous and monohydrate, as you said. Luckily, based on what I've read the actual weight when Sodium Carbonate is called for isn't that important to the overall formula. Sounds like close enough is good enough with regard this particular chemical.

Thanks, again,
AlanH

c6h6o3 · Apr 22, 2015

gzinsel said:
Also the china Amidol does not work well with any of the chloro-bromide papers either. Ya, Its true Lodima is soft compared to Kodak Azo ( 1 grade), BUT the developer has So Many impurities it in. Like IRON, like say. . .. . .. the whole Periodic Table thrown in for good Measure!!!!!!!!!!!! ITs Garbage!!!!! I have been using Amidol for roughly 15 years. When I got Chinese, it was gross, it was like someone wiping their butt, and then smearing it all over my paper. IT'S TOTALLY OFFENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and its offensive that someone can actually saY TO MY FACE, THAT IT'S AMIDOL. It is a bold face lie, or gross perversion of the truth. I am still furious over this,, 2-3 after the fact. IF all injustices in the world, in the photo world, why any company, would sell a non reagent grade and NOT tell anyone, is wrong.. There should have been a class action lawsuit. I still can't believe people are still going around perpetuating the rumor the chinese Amidol is o.k. and blaming "that its the Paper" or "because your mom got a cold, who lives in Berkley!" or on your cat. The people who are perpetuating this rumor obviously DO NOT have a high standard, they are part of a crown of "GOOD ENOUGH" .

The purchase of that stuff was a long, sad saga. What was SUPPOSED to happen was a test on the dock before the shipment was loaded and payment remitted. What ACTUALLY happened was the Chinese sent over a sample which MAS tested and pronounced ok. The order was then paid for and shipped. The Chinese had really seen us coming. The full order was nothing like the sample.

I have a friend who is an attorney in the import business (he has a liqueur manufactured in Italy which his company distributes) and what's more he had a Chinese law school graduate working as intern at his firm that year whose native language is Mandarin. He was willing to help us negotiate a contract with the Chinese chemical company who made the stuff (pro bono-he's also a photographer and collector). But nobody seemed interested in doing things in a professional manner so the organizer went ahead and did it his way. The result was a Shakespearean tragedy.

It is very nasty to work with, and I think it's not as reactive as it was a few years ago, but I've made some really fine prints with the Chinese stuff. And as I mentioned before, there are a lot of people who have a lot more reason to be bitter about the deal than you do, unless you bought a huge amount. I bought 2.5 kg of the stuff and somehow I've managed to survive. I'm sorry that my standards are obviously so low.

I've never had any trouble with black specks that Alan9940 mentions. So, I have no idea whether it's the paper or the developer. I filter the Chinese amidol with a filter funnel and it seems to get all the particulates out.

Alan9940 · Apr 22, 2015

c6h6o3 said:
I've never had any trouble with black specks that Alan9940 mentions. So, I have no idea whether it's the paper or the developer. I filter the Chinese amidol with a filter funnel and it seems to get all the particulates out.

Hello Jim,

I'm pretty sure the Chinese Amidol is responsible for the black specks (and not the paper) because I didn't have this issue when using PPPD with Lodima. I just wanted to try MAS's Amidol formula because he and many others raved about its magical qualities with Lodima. To my mind, if a photographer I respect such as MAS suggests that I try Amidol, then you can bet I'm gonna try it! Back in the day, if I heard Ansel printed in a bikini I'd think it kinda weird but I'd certainly give it a go!!

Anyway, it's just too bad my initial foray into "Amidol land" was with the Chinese crap I got. I'm not giving up though... Next time I'm printing silver 8x10 negs--working on some pt/pd stuff right now--I plan to filter the heck out of the Amidol, use the higher concentration stop bath MAS recommended, maybe rinse between stop and fixer steps, and then see where all that leaves me. I'm hopeful...

Best regards,
Alan

c6h6o3 · Apr 22, 2015

Alan9940 said:
Hello Jim,

I'm pretty sure the Chinese Amidol is responsible for the black specks (and not the paper) because I didn't have this issue when using PPPD with Lodima. I just wanted to try MAS's Amidol formula because he and many others raved about its magical qualities with Lodima. To my mind, if a photographer I respect such as MAS suggests that I try Amidol, then you can bet I'm gonna try it! Back in the day, if I heard Ansel printed in a bikini I'd think it kinda weird but I'd certainly give it a go!!

Anyway, it's just too bad my initial foray into "Amidol land" was with the Chinese crap I got. I'm not giving up though... Next time I'm printing silver 8x10 negs--working on some pt/pd stuff right now--I plan to filter the heck out of the Amidol, use the higher concentration stop bath MAS recommended, maybe rinse between stop and fixer steps, and then see where all that leaves me. I'm hopeful...

Best regards,
Alan

I'll sell you a little Artcraft amidol if you like. I think I could spare 1/4 #.

Alan9940 · Apr 23, 2015

Hello Jim,

Thank you! That's a very generous offer!!

Please contact me privately at: alan dot huntley at cox dot net and let me how you'd like to handle this transaction.

Best regards,
Alan

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