Pyro - more questions and doubts (catechol / pyrogallol / xtol)

Hi,

(Not my goal to start a hefty debate!)
But I just stumbled on this old post on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/67377471@N00/discuss/72157632789802910/
in which Jay DeFehr has it doubts on Pyrocat formula's.

Probably this has been adressed before (on APUG...)
Is there anything I can conclude of it?

My normal developer always has been X-TOL (and sometimes Rodinal)
My reason behind mixing Pyrocat (MC) is for preservation of highlights when overexposing Fomapan 400 (35mm) on EI 200/160.
Is this a valid reason?

I also want to use Pyrocat MC together with Acros 100 in MF, development adjusted to the SBR of the scene.

My other film stocks are Fomapan 100 in 35, and TMY-2 in 120 (currently, I change only in 35mm)
Any idea for specific cases in which Pyrocat can have an advantage with those compared to X-TOL?

PieterB said:

Hi,

(Not my goal to start a hefty debate!)
But I just stumbled on this old post on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/67377471@N00/discuss/72157632789802910/
in which Jay DeFehr has it doubts on Pyrocat formula's.

Probably this has been adressed before (on APUG...)
Is there anything I can conclude of it?

My normal developer always has been X-TOL (and sometimes Rodinal)
My reason behind mixing Pyrocat (MC) is for preservation of highlights when overexposing Fomapan 400 (35mm) on EI 200/160.
Is this a valid reason?

I also want to use Pyrocat MC together with Acros 100 in MF, development adjusted to the SBR of the scene.

My other film stocks are Fomapan 100 in 35, and TMY-2 in 120 (currently, I change only in 35mm)
Any idea for specific cases in which Pyrocat can have an advantage with those compared to X-TOL?

Click to expand...

You might know : There is not THE formulation of Pyrocat / Pyrocat (MC)
I know SOME wich are little different.
You also might not think : " Ok - but wich one is correct one"?
BECAUSE : I personaly can't say - there are No incorect formulations published.
(with some exeptions from bad translations. .. ).
What you just noticed are : Variants of Pyrocat.
I find out that Steve Anchel has made a remarcable advance with Pyro.
But others have their own preferences - don't care about so much.
Make your own experience.
with regards

Ok - your question to special films.
Ist like a debate in taste. Some say - some like this a.s.o.
Pyrocat is not everybodys darling - but the question is Do YOU like the results.
Are there alternates : Yes of cause - one you mentioned is KodakXtol (everybodys darling) I prefer D76 more in comparison.
An other alternate to avoid overexposed highlights is alternate exposure...
Seriously : Perceptol with other E.I. (pulled) would preserve highlights and would give a wider spread of tonals.
But this All is on YOU.
(some Do not like it)

So hurry up and begain with work out

with regards

Wider spread of tonals is no good formulation.
I mean : very fine nuances of tonals near by near.

with regards

PS : Also no good formulation...

Hello Pieter,

Have you looked at http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/ ? I believe this site was made by Sandy King, who created the Pyrocat family of developers. It's a very comprehensive set of pages.

Jay DeFehr's comments on the Flicker page you linked seem to be opinion based on his understanding of developer theory, it doesn't sound like he actually used the developer and compared the results to those obtained with developers. Also, he's talking specifically about Pyrocat-HD, which uses phenidone, while you are asking about Pyrocat-MC which instead has metol! So his comments, whether accurate or not, may not be relevant to your question. There are a couple of very knowledgeable chemists on this list who could perhaps address this.

Many people, including me, are very happy using Pyrocat. I've never tested to see how well it controls the highlights relative to other developers, but I get negatives that can produce prints I like. The long shelf life of the stock solution, especially when the A solution is mixed in propylene glycol, is a real plus for me.

Pyrocat-HD, at least, is very useful in some Extreme Minimal Agitation methods with more dilute developer and long times. Steve Sherman has done a lot of work in this area and I use his methods with Pyrocat-HDC for sheet film. I don't know how it would do with 35mm or 120.

Personally I have no experience with Pyrocat-MC. I initially used Pyrocat-HD and switched to -HDC about a year ago. HD and HDC give essentially identical results except that the slightly different formula for HDC requires no water at all when mixed in glycol for longer shelf life; HD needs a little water to dissolve some of the ingredients before they're added to the glycol.

You joined APUG long after the King/DeFehr wars that led to Jay being banned. Just understand that Jay has/had a point of view that was not shared by everyone. I’ve found value in some of what he said, and less value in other things. Make your own tests.

I didn't read the Flickr post, but I've used Pyrocat-HD for many years and played around some with 510-Pyro (one of Jay's formulations.) IMO, no film developer has any "special qualities." I use a pyro-style developer because I like the prints I'm able to obtain in the darkroom. I have no doubt that a skilled worker using D-76 could probably produce very similar looking prints to mine.

'

PieterB said:

Hi,

(Not my goal to start a hefty debate!)
But I just stumbled on this old post on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/67377471@N00/discuss/72157632789802910/
in which Jay DeFehr has it doubts on Pyrocat formula's.

Probably this has been adressed before (on APUG...)
Is there anything I can conclude of it?

My normal developer always has been X-TOL (and sometimes Rodinal)
My reason behind mixing Pyrocat (MC) is for preservation of highlights when overexposing Fomapan 400 (35mm) on EI 200/160.
Is this a valid reason?

I also want to use Pyrocat MC together with Acros 100 in MF, development adjusted to the SBR of the scene.

My other film stocks are Fomapan 100 in 35, and TMY-2 in 120 (currently, I change only in 35mm)
Any idea for specific cases in which Pyrocat can have an advantage with those compared to X-TOL?

Click to expand...

Yeah - your goal wasn't to start. ..a heavy ......

Wy not procede this way :
You soon try out pyrocat MC - then you compare on the basis of personal preferences with further formulation.
After some years of experience you remember Film Developers Cook book.
You remember Sandy King, Steve Sherman (names let us remember real surfing legends) and then it should be your next decision : "To decide who of the guys was right"

Bon Chance

Alan9940 said:

I didn't read the Flickr post, but I've used Pyrocat-HD for many years and played around some with 510-Pyro (one of Jay's formulations.) IMO, no film developer has any "special qualities." I use a pyro-style developer because I like the prints I'm able to obtain in the darkroom. I have no doubt that a skilled worker using D-76 could probably produce very similar looking prints to mine.

Click to expand...

I did it the same (few weeks ago with my last Foma Film ...have to buy next some
bulk Ilford).
510 pyro is very smart - i like it.

with regards

Seeking an alternative motion picture developer, I just tested pyrocat HD, Rodinal, FX2 and D96 similar to D76). To simulate a motion picture frame, I enlarged a half frame (4perf) to 11x14. The lens was a Zeiss 35mm 2.8 on my Contax RTSII. One image was shot at f4, the other at mid aperture.

Of those developers, pyrocat HD had the best tonality and tonal separation of the bunch. It stood on its own. However, at this enlargement level (x14), where grain and acutance are really scrutinized, I preferred the grain structure of any of the other developers and Pyrocat HD looked almost defocused with ill-defined grain. I wonder if this is partly the stain obscuring the grain. It was no less sharp than D96 however. Both Rodinal and FX2 are unsurprisingly more sharp and much more grain-prominent. But again, if you step back, the tonality of pyrocat is much more “alive”

Wanting the best of both, I’m now going to try The MC version of pyrocat and at a higher dilution. Unfortunately, I’m limited to regular agitation in my tests in order to simulate motion picture developing.

Jarin

PieterB said:

Hi,

(Not my goal to start a hefty debate!)
But I just stumbled on this old post on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/67377471@N00/discuss/72157632789802910/
in which Jay DeFehr has it doubts on Pyrocat formula's.

Probably this has been adressed before (on APUG...)
Is there anything I can conclude of it?

Click to expand...

Nope. I don't see him around anymore. He was massively argumentative and had some kind of ego thing wanting everyone to use his developers.

PieterB said:

My normal developer always has been X-TOL (and sometimes Rodinal)
My reason behind mixing Pyrocat (MC) is for preservation of highlights when overexposing Fomapan 400 (35mm) on EI 200/160.
Is this a valid reason?

Click to expand...

Yup. I use Pyrocat PC to do exactly that. I don't like messing around with the zone system. I'd rather be using my brain juice on more important things. Pyrocat allows a ton of over exposure and still delivers. If you look in my gallery here you will see pinhole images shot straight into the sun. The falloff on the panoramic pinhole is horrible but Pyrocat lets me overexpose the bejeesus out of the negs to get some detail at the edges of the falloff, and still get a reasonably easy neg to print. Can't beat that! I've never had a highlight block with Pyrocat.

Steve Goldstein said:

Hello Pieter,

Have you looked at http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/ ? I believe this site was made by Sandy King, who created the Pyrocat family of developers. It's a very comprehensive set of pages..

Click to expand...

Yep. I mixed my own with glycol and I really like the first film (visually)
Completely different IMO. I still have to scan and wet-print them.

juan said:

You joined APUG long after the King/DeFehr wars that led to Jay being banned.

Click to expand...

You sure? I joined in 2004 but never followed those topics (I was an 'early' XTOL user... 2nd rodinal) and was a passive user for a few years. I did not know about the ban but reading the rather strong opinion, I suspected something like that....
Also: I do not see the Pyrocat MC / HD and variants formulas in my (most recent) copy of the darkroom cookbook.

juan said:

Make your own tests.

Click to expand...

I agree. But I like opinions and some parameters to start.

Patrick Robert James said:

Pyrocat allows a ton of over exposure and still delivers. .... I've never had a highlight block with Pyrocat.

Click to expand...

I hope to see that same result. Not every image needs to be black vs white, some grey values are necessary.
Hope to post a followup (link to new post) someday with a proper comparison (complete test, density curves...)
However it is not my goal to use the ZS that much on 35mm ...