PVA (glue) coagulation with india ink

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2016

i have done this successfully in the past, but today i had trouble
anyone else have the same troubles ?

i mixed speedball india ink with PVA glue, first
stuff i have used before with a different brand of ink ..
make a clumpy mess ...
then with elmer's white glue ( glue-all ) also PVA
also the same india ink, also mixed the 2 together also clumped
so much it was useless.

i can't remember the brand of ink i used previously, it WASN'T speedball ...
but i had no issues at all, ... anyone know what the deal is with speedball india ink ??

thanks
john

DWThomas · Mar 23, 2016

No actual idea, but in my own experience (for drafting use), Higgins used to be the common brand found "back in the day". I think it was actually based on some sort of shellac formulation, but I suppose over the ensuing 50 years there could have been many changes in the ingredients.

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2016

thanks dave.
i'll look into that...

paul ron · Mar 23, 2016

water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2016

thanks paul, makes sense ...
maybe I used a different ink before ? could have sworn it was India ink ....maybe 'll use a black reed dye
I'll have to call Elmer tomorrow ...

Steve Smith · Mar 24, 2016

paul ron said:
water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

It should as PVA glue is regularly diluted with water to use as a wall sealant/size.

Steve.

Ian Grant · Mar 24, 2016

paul ron said:
water based india ink or glue doesn't mix with the pva solvent.

That's odd because the PVA solvent is water

I mix PVA with a variety of other things like water based acrylics paints,, Inkjet pigments and India ink should be no different, sometimes it takes a bit of mixing as the PVA has a low water content.

Ian

pdeeh · Mar 24, 2016

have you tried fresh PVA from the store john? if your pva has been sitting around it might have got contaminated/frozen in the outhouse/probed by aliens ...

guangong · Mar 24, 2016

As someone who draws with ink and was at one time a cartographer I would recommend Pelikan Indian ink. Higgins is a terrible ink. We described it as schwach. Higgins will also eventually flake of of the support. Any good art supply store should have Pelikan inks (if you can find a good art supply store...they have gone the way of good camera stores).

paul ron · Mar 24, 2016

oh im sorry... pva is water based, aka wood glue. but the ink is alcohol based with shelac. probably the alcohol is causing tge polymer to clot.

incompatable solvents either way.

removed account4 · Mar 24, 2016

pdeeh, it is brand new glue i am using,
i spoke with elmer's and they have no experience with
putting dyes or inks or anything in their product.
i am waiting to hear back from speedball ... ( missed his call )

its probably and additive in their ink, cause i've successfully inked other glues
without any issues. i'll probably just go to wally's and get some montrose colors ink
or more than likely some black reed dye and suspend the dye in the glue...
its kind of a PITA .. but i know reed dye works wonders with photographs,
so i am guessing it will work wonders with glue LOL

paul ron · Mar 24, 2016

what are you planing to use your black glue on?

removed account4 · Mar 24, 2016

well, i just heard back from speedball. i guess there is an ingredient in their ink that doesn't like glue.
paul, i am painting it on old bellows to "re-juvinate" them

lloyd · Mar 24, 2016

+1 pelikan worth a try but not sure

why not black watercolor or acrylic

pva is regularly mixed with other water based adhesives,
ie methyl cellulose and wheat paste in bookbinding

mdarnton · Mar 24, 2016

Most india inks use borax or a similar alkalai to dissolve the shellac in water. Too much borax or a stronger alkalai will clot glue. If you still want to experiment try adding a drop or two of vinegar to the ink to calm it down a bit. That might work, might not work, or might ruin the ink.

Jim Jones · Mar 24, 2016

lloyd said:
+. . . why not black watercolor or acrylic. . . .

Yes, indeed. When a bellows has a fiber lining, I use liquid artists acrylic paint well scrubbed into the lining with an old soft toothbrush.

juan · Mar 24, 2016

I use liquid electrical tape from Ace Hardware. It's black, lightproof and flexible.
Juan

paul ron · Mar 24, 2016

black shoe polish is great for making a bellows look new n crisp.

Patrick Robert James · Mar 24, 2016

If you are fixing pinholes John I have found Plastidip to be a hell of a lot more convenient. Cheap too.

DREW WILEY · Mar 25, 2016

??? *&%^!!!! Shoe polish is wax and will prevent any kind of legit rubberized compound from being used. And India ink is obviously a shellac dispersal in alcohol, while PVA glue is an ordinary water emulsion, so there you have it. If you're just trying to patch pinholes, a couple decent ideas
have already been floated.

removed account4 · Mar 23, 2017

turns out after doing this little project again ( since i know it worked the first times i did it )
i was putting too much ink in the mix .. only a small amount of ink is needed and no coagulation happens ..

Rick A · Mar 23, 2017

jnanian, I use Puffy fabric paint on bellows to close pinholes, works perfectly fine. I buy it at Wally's or other art supply shops, acrylic based and is flexible.

removed account4 · Apr 7, 2017

thanks rick !

Patrick Robert James · Apr 7, 2017

Last time I plugged pinholes I used Permatex Black gasket maker. I figure if it can withstand a couple decades of abuse holding in gear oil, it shouldn't have too much trouble keeping light out of a bellows. I used a pin to push through the pinhole, put a little Permatex on the pin, then pulled it back through. A little on the outside as well, and let it cure. Dunzo.

removed account4 · Apr 7, 2017

patrick robert james,
thanks for your suggestions

aside from the magical and sometimes failing pva and india ink, there are a few other alternatives in this thread including yours which sound great
i wish there was a thread or sticky that had "bellows fix solutions"

oh, a couple more to the mix

both bostick and sullivan and equinox photographic sell some sort of bellows fix "stuff"
(or they used to)

PVA (glue) coagulation with india ink

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency