Puzzled by Paper

pschwart · Jun 30, 2010

John Lockhart said:
I took the Lana Aquarelle and tried the technique of soaking the paper in an acid. I just used a fresh batch of the 3% citric acid I use to clear the prints. It's what I have on hand. For the last two I didn't rinse them off at all. I just let them soak for about 10 minutes and hung them up to dry. The results are much better than what I got from the Lana without the acid. However, still not quite what I want. I will try the acid in sensitizer technique next. The scans of the prints lost some of the contrast, particularly the one of the cross, I didn't have time to monkey with the scan. However, they are clearly much better. The images are smoother and sharper with noticeably better blacks.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lockhart1969/4742219182/in/set-72157624169743355/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lockhart1969/4741592683/in/set-72157624169743355/

I have not had good luck acidifying papers with citric acid, but a 3 minute soak in 1.5% oxalic acid provides excellent results. Some papers will also print well if the acid is just brushed on (but the image color may be different if the paper is soaked). If I dry the paper with a hair dryer I can print immediately.

Loris Medici · Jun 30, 2010

A note about scanning (especially off-white alt. process) prints:

I always include a small piece of fully exposed / processed (giving dmax) glossy resin based s/g paper (as black reference), AND a small piece of yupo (as white reference) in the scans. I don't do automatic white balance (or similar adjustments) in the scanning program, instead, I just use the curves (or levels) adjustment in PS by setting the white and black points by clicking the relevant parts of the scan. Worked always well for me...

Regards,
Loris.

donbga · Jun 30, 2010

pschwart said:
I have not had good luck acidifying papers with citric acid, but a 3 minute soak in 1.5% oxalic acid provides excellent results. Some papers will also print well if the acid is just brushed on (but the image color may be different if the paper is soaked). If I dry the paper with a hair dryer I can print immediately.

What Phil said!

Don

sanking · Jul 1, 2010

Don Bryant said:
What Phil said!

Don

Just to be clear, have you and Phil had good success with Lanaquarelle soaking it in oxalic acid? With citric acid I get pretty large grain was was reported in a previous message. I would be very pleased if it worked nicely after soaking with oxalic as I have a lot of Lanaquarelle on hand and I would really like to use it for vandyke.

Sandy

donbga · Jul 1, 2010

sanking said:
Just to be clear, have you and Phil had good success with Lanaquarelle soaking it in oxalic acid?

My comment was based on the use of oxalic acid soak with other papers compared to citric acid soak not with Lanaquarelle. I've never used the paper.
Sorry if my comment was misleading or bogus.

Don

pschwart · Jul 2, 2010

sanking said:
Just to be clear, have you and Phil had good success with Lanaquarelle soaking it in oxalic acid? With citric acid I get pretty large grain was was reported in a previous message. I would be very pleased if it worked nicely after soaking with oxalic as I have a lot of Lanaquarelle on hand and I would really like to use it for vandyke.

Sandy

I have had success with Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico Extra White. I haven't tried Lanaquarelle but I do have some on hand. I'll give it a go and report back.
The Lanaquarelle internal sizing gets blotchy after a thorough soaking and the blotches don't disappear when the paper dries so I abandoned it for carbon supports. Arches watercolor had the same problem, but I will give it the acid test because I still have a few sheets.

donbga · Jul 2, 2010

pschwart said:
I have had success with Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico Extra White.

These are the papers I've acidified with oxalic acid as well. Citric acid treatment didn't seem to do much at all.

I've got a small stockpile of Fabriano Satinata that I should test as well as Twin Rocker Deckle Edge. Both of these papers have a nice base color and weight, but have low DMAX with palladium print processing.

Don

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

I tried Lana in 2% oxalic, with no luck. Maybe it was too much, but still had the grain issues.

I was thinking of trying some muriatic acid, one of the readily available concrete etcher/cleaners.

FWIW, I have good luck with 5% citric acid for FAEW, but I'm always surprised how different individual results can be. I've never had the blotchy sizing problem with Lana for example, and I've been using it for carbon for several years now.

Loris Medici · Jul 2, 2010

Colin, dilute to a final concentration of 2% (4% max.) v/v, and please share your findings. (E.g. if the muriatic acid is 30% v/v, then add 20 ml / %30 ~= 65-70ml of the concentrated into 900ml water then make up to 1000ml...)

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

Thanks Loris, I was about to ask that very question.

Loris Medici · Jul 2, 2010

Be warned that (there was a url link here which no longer exists) tested this paper's pH and it was *already* on the neutral to acid side... Therefore, if it works with the acid, it may be due the effect of acid on the paper's sizing - not neutralization.

One reason for grain is bad absorption characteristics of the sizing and/or fibers. Moreso with papers with a mixture of different fibers. Could be that the paper absorbs too much (or too little) sensitizer; you may fix this by adding an extra sizing layer (if too much) or adding a non-ionic surfactant into the coating solution (if too little). Also, increasing the RH of the workplace to something around 55-75% (and let the paper stay there for at least a couple of hours to stabilize) may help.

Good luck!

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

Thanks for pointing that out, I'd overlooked that comment in that thread.

One of the reasons I keep trying the get Lana to work is that it one of the only bright white papers available in 90lb weight. Not to hijack the thread but if anyone knows of a bright white 90lb paper that works well with iron processes I'd love to hear about it.

Loris Medici · Jul 2, 2010

Try Masa paper... It's very white (cold-bluish white) and has a very smooth surface. It's considerably lighter than 90lb (something like 80-90gsm, which makes something like 36-42lb...) but very robust in water, IME. But you should handle it with care anyway! (Creases easily - if you mishandle, but absolutely doesn't tear; very strong...) It's OK for prints up to 11x14"... Gives very good Dmax!

Loris Medici · Jul 2, 2010

BTW, I've got very nice results (best dmax, even better than Cot320...) with Masa and Argyrotype. If it works nice with Argyrotype, it will work well with any other iron or iron-silver process! Try it, it's cheap...

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

Thanks! I will for sure check it out, the price is certainly right. Sounds like it might be a nice choice for albumen as well.

edit- Loris, I forgot to ask- does the masa need an acid treatment?

pschwart · Jul 2, 2010

sanking said:
Just to be clear, have you and Phil had good success with Lanaquarelle soaking it in oxalic acid? With citric acid I get pretty large grain was was reported in a previous message. I would be very pleased if it worked nicely after soaking with oxalic as I have a lot of Lanaquarelle on hand and I would really like to use it for vandyke.

Sandy

I just did a couple of quick tests using Lanaquarelle. Print were POP 100% palladium. Sorry, I forgot to include a step table so I can't report the actual dMax. The paper was from a watercolor block, not sheet stock, but I am assuming they are identical. The weight was 300gsm.

1. soaked for 3 minutes in 1.5% oxalic acid
- paper needed a higher drop count as it was more absorbent than
Platine and COT320
- Good exposure using my standard time. Tonal distribution matches
what I see on Platine and COT320
- Very smooth tones -- no visible graininess
- Paper does not clear as readily as Platine or COT320, but I got there
after 3 clearing baths.
- Paper does get blotchy when thoroughly wet and seems to soak up
more water than Platine and COT320. My test prints are still drying,
but the blotchiness did disappear when dried after the acid soak.

2. brushed on a wet coat of 1.5% oxalic acid
- Image is very light (I'd guess at least 30%). Note that for this test I
increased the drop count about 15% and added 1 drop of polyvinyl
alcohol to 14 drops sensitizer+palladium. I probably should have kept the
coating regimen the same for a direct comparison.
- Still very smooth tones.
- This print didn't want to clear. I didn't persist because the soaked
image was so much better.

Based on this, I will probably use up the lana I have, but I don't see that this paper offers anything special to justify the hassle. It is very close in tone to COT320, Platine, and Artistico, but they don't get blotchy and clear more readily. Unless I found some *really* cheap, I don't think I would bother. I reserve the right to change my mind if I do more thorough testing

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

Well, based on that I'll have to try again. Likely I goofed something in my test. Thanks for sharing your results. Yay, more testing...:rolleyes:

pschwart · Jul 2, 2010

Colin Graham said:
Well, based on that I'll have to try again. Likely I goofed something in my test. Thanks for sharing your results. Yay, more testing...:rolleyes:

The watercolor block I used is a few years old; maybe the paper has been changed ...

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

That would make sense, given the differences we're seeing with the sizing. I had always assumed the Lana did use an AKD size, if only because of the durability and feel of the paper is simliar to Fabriano, whereas Arches in the same weight feels much more fragile. I definitely see the blotchiness you mention in the Arches paper after even a brief soaking. But I've been sizing a bunch of Lana today for carbon, and can't notice any unevenness or blotches under backlighting, and it absorbs the new gelatin sizing very evenly.

Anyway, I just put an 1/2 sheet of lana in an oxalic bath, duplicating your method...and hopefully your results! Thanks again.

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

hey, just read this on the handprint site-

"I should mention that I've had bad experiences with the Lanaquarelle watercolor blocks. I've often found that several sheets in a block are not acceptably sized: a random splatter of excess external sizing (or some other contaminant that repels water) appears on the paper surface. When a wash is laid over these areas, the water rolls off without penetrating the paper, leaving an ugly white blotch. "

I haven't seen this at all with individual sheets.

sanking · Jul 2, 2010

pschwart said:
I have had success with Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico Extra White. I haven't tried Lanaquarelle but I do have some on hand. I'll give it a go and report back.
The Lanaquarelle internal sizing gets blotchy after a thorough soaking and the blotches don't disappear when the paper dries so I abandoned it for carbon supports. Arches watercolor had the same problem, but I will give it the acid test because I still have a few sheets.

I have not had any problem with sized Lanaquarelle used as the final carbon support, nor with Arches Aquarelle. I am not especially fond of the look of carbon prints on Lanaquarelle but technically there have not been any problems, or with Arches.

You use much less size per sheet than I do so this could be the reason for our different results.

Sandy

Colin Graham · Jul 2, 2010

Hell's bells. I must have really screwed up my previous oxalic test because some test kallitypes on oxalic-treated Lana I just made look really pretty good. Thanks Phil for giving me inspiration to revisit this because these look really nice! Very smooth tonal gradation and no obtrusive grain.

I had a few different experiences though using the 90lb for kallitypes. I actually needed less solution as the paper didn't seem very absorbent and the sensitizer was a little trickier to brush out than arches or fabriano. I had no problems clearing either, the developer alone cleared the print in minutes.

I also used similar exposure times as with my other papers. I used a sodium acetate developer which gave an odd and interesting split tone effect- cool lavender highlights and the classic iodine shadows. A 20 minute toning in palladium resulted in even neutral blacks and highlights, but it took every bit of 20 minutes to tone all the way into the shadows. I could see no bleaching effect from the extended toning. The blacks look very very rich, but sorry to say I have no way to test the actual dmax. It really does look very similar to FAEW, but the test prints are still wet, I'll compare them to arches and fabriano after the dry down. Which brings up another nice aspect of the paper- it dries incredibly fast.

Thanks again Phil for sharing your tests.

pschwart · Jul 2, 2010

sanking said:
You use much less size per sheet than I do so this could be the reason for our different results.

Sandy

That's probably right. It's hard to beat Artistico for price, handling, and overall quality, but I am always looking for new papers to test. It's nice to know I can use the Artistico for both platinum and carbon.

PVia · Jul 3, 2010

I had a heck of a time this week with a new batch of Fabriano Artistico EW hot press for pt/pd work. Normally I acidify with 1% oxalic acid for 3-5 minutes, but this time it took at least 5% for 15 minutes and I could've gone a bit higher.

Loris suggested HCl acid, but I haven't wanted to go that far with it.

I'm getting good prints but I lost 3 days tracking down the problem. It's no fun when a paper jumps on you.

Loris - thanks for the Masa/argyrotype tip!

Loris Medici · Jul 3, 2010

Hi Paul, as I said in alt-photo list, you can use acetic acid in place of HCl. I prefer HCl since it's a common household chemical here in Turkey and I don't like the odor of acetic much... (Give it a chance and see if results / handling improves for you.)

Puzzled by Paper

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