Putting a Planar or Xenotar on a 50s folding camera like super isolette

[stan_1]

has anyone tried to put a Planar or Xenotar 75mm 3.5 (e.g. from a Rolleiflex) on a super isolette or a similar unit focusing 75mm folder? Can that work?

 

[Don_ih]

Even though the actual focal lengths might not be exactly their nominal focal lengths, they should be close enough to shim to get the proper focus at infinity. Front/rear cell spacing needs to be correct in the shutter, also. I'd say it can work but might be a lot of trouble. And, if the actual focal length of your chosen lens is a bit too short, it might be impossible.

 

[stan_1]

I was also thinking there may be problems with focusing. As the same movement of the lens assembly might not result in the same new focal plane, thus making a synchronization with the rangefinder impossible… was wondering if someone had tried it out

 

[BrianShaw]

I tried similar, but not exactly what you are thinking about: putting a modern shutter and lens on an old Speed Graphic. It worked fine for ground glass focusing. Calibrating the rangefinder was the problem… as you suspect. It wasn’t worth the effort. In my case I’m not sure that I ever achieved that correct infinity position that was mentioned earlier.

 

[stan_1]

Maybe one could use an uncoupled rangefinder and create a custom distance scale for the “alien“ lens…

 

[BrianShaw]

The amount of effort that’s worthwhile could depend upon the motivation. I’ve come to find that if I’m not happy with the quality I get from an old camera, then I either replace it with a higher quality camera or use other methods, like monopod or tripod or faster film, to help the camera “be all that it can be”. Re-engineering cameras just isn’t worth the time… to me.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Along with simple issues of 'will it even focus?' because of different back flange distances, etc., there is also a question of room. Not only if the front door will be able to close but also if there is enough space at the back of the lens/front of the bellows. And if closing the camera risks the rear group going back too far into the film and pressure plate.

I've taken lenses off of folders and mounted them for use on 6x9 press-type cameras like a Horseman VH and a Century Graphic. I focused using ground glass, not any rangefinder assembly.

 

[Rick A]

Along with simple issues of 'will it even focus?' because of different back flange distances, etc., there is also a question of room. Not only if the front door will be able to close but also if there is enough space at the back of the lens/front of the bellows. And if closing the camera risks the rear group going back too far into the film and pressure plate.

I've taken lenses off of folders and mounted them for use on 6x9 press-type cameras like a Horseman VH and a Century Graphic. I focused using ground glass, not any rangefinder assembly.

I mounted a fixed focal length lens on a folder many years ago, it took a ton of testing and shimming to get the focus, and since there was no helical focus it was strictly infinity focus. The larger than original shutter made it impossible to close the camera. I found it far more enjoyable to pull lenses off trashed folders and mount them on my 4x5.

 

[kl122002]

I was told from a local lab that a local guy could do this by modifying a Mamiya 6 folder to have the Planar or Xenotar lens. Mamiya 6 is focused by moving the film plane and so the lens position would remain the same.

But I don't know whether it could close the front door since the Planar /Xenotar seems larger than the original tessar-like lens on Mamiya 6.

 

[250swb]

If you start with a plan and choose say an M42 helicoid mount you'll probably find the necessary adapters for either end to fix the helicoid to a plate and the lens to the helicoid. For focusing shim until you get infinity focus using a ground glass on the image plain and then focus back onto objects a known distance away and mark each distance with different coloured paint on the helicoid against an infinity reference mark. So you'll know 'blue' is infinity, 'red' is 100ft, 'yellow' 50 feet, etc. You can then either guess the distance to a subject or use a rangefinder and transfer that reading to the helicoid.

 

[Dan Fromm]

OP, what's your goal? To shoot 6x6 with a Planar/Xenotar using a pocketable camera? Or to use a lens from an otherwise dead TLR?

 

[OAPOli]

I think most folders use a #00 shutter, which would accept the f/3.5 cells from the TLRs. Next is the flange-focus distance. If the Planar/Xenotar has a longer distance, you could shift the focus scale (assuming careful collimation) and readjust the rangefinder. If the flange focus distance is shorter, I'm not sure. Maybe you can mess around with the infinity stop and/or shift the helicoid starting thread?

 

[Dan Fromm]

I think most folders use a #00 shutter, which would accept the f/3.5 cells from the TLRs. Next is the flange-focus distance. If the Planar/Xenotar has a longer distance, you could shift the focus scale (assuming careful collimation) and readjust the rangefinder. If the flange focus distance is shorter, I'm not sure. Maybe you can mess around with the infinity stop and/or shift the helicoid starting thread?

Interesting. Do any relatively modern pocketable 6x6 folders have infinity stops? As I recall, ancient ones like Folding Pocket Kodaks do, but I don't think they're what the OP has in mind. I'm also not sure that there were 6x6 FPKs. 6x6 is a bit small for their era.

 

[OAPOli]

Interesting. Do any relatively modern pocketable 6x6 folders have infinity stops?

I believe most modern folders do, including the Super Isolette mentioned by the OP.

My post above assumes the original lens is a 75mm (most were Tessar types) which might have a flange-focus within a few mm of the Planar or Xenotar (but who knows). As @Dan Daniel said one would also have to check if the new cells interfere with the folding mechanism.

I did something somewhat analogous on a Fuji GS645W with the 45mm lens. Used the lens cells for a custom camera. Then I tested a few 135-format #00 lenses on the Fuji body. A 45mm Tessar type had a shorter flange-focus and couldn't work. Found a 48mm triplet which had a slightly longer flange-focus but I was able to shift the helicoid and get a correct infinity stop.

 

[ic-racer]

If one has ever aligned and or collimated the front standard of a Rolleiflex TLR to fractions of a millimeter, one mght say the project (implanting the Rolleiflex lens on a flimsy folding camera) is doomed to failure.

 

[Dan Fromm]

I believe most modern folders do, including the Super Isolette mentioned by the OP.

Are you sure? And are we talking about the same thing when we say bed stop?

I was thinking of adjustable bed stops as are used on many press cameras, e.g., Pacemaker Graphics. To erect the camera, one opens the door until the bed stays lock and slides the standard out on the rails until it hits the bed stops. In the case of the Super Isolette -- see https://www.ebay.com/itm/2562536943...abcId=9307249&merchantid=6296724&gad_source=1 -- one opens the door and everything unfolds until the bed stays lock. I don't think that in this case the stops, which seem to be integral parts of the bed, can be adjusted. Am I missing something?

 

[BrianShaw]

https://www.kenrockwell.com/agfa/super-isolette.htm

I don’t think you are missing anything, Dan.

 

[nosmok]

I put a 75mm front-cell focusing Heliar on an old Agfa Billy Zero 4x6cm 127 film camera-- the Heliar's body (Bessa 46 or 66) was trashed, and the original Solinar on the Billy was frozen solid. It worked eventually BUT 1) they're both front cell focusers, so not completely analogous; 2) I had to knock a big hole in the front plate of the Billy since the Heliar is larger and deeper (plan was to make the hole big enough to put a Nikor tank cap into, but I wanted to test it to make sure it works so I just put a cap on the lens itself, and it's stayed that way); and 3) the controls are in wonky places except shutter release (another reason not to put that Nikor cap on). The short of all this is it's probably not worth the trouble, but you do you.

 

[OAPOli]

Are you sure? And are we talking about the same thing when we say bed stop?

I was thinking of adjustable bed stops as are used on many press cameras, e.g., Pacemaker Graphics. To erect the camera, one opens the door until the bed stays lock and slides the standard out on the rails until it hits the bed stops. In the case of the Super Isolette -- see https://www.ebay.com/itm/2562536943...abcId=9307249&merchantid=6296724&gad_source=1 -- one opens the door and everything unfolds until the bed stays lock. I don't think that in this case the stops, which seem to be integral parts of the bed, can be adjusted. Am I missing something?

You mentioned "infinity stops". I understood that as the stop on the helicoid movement, which is what I was referencing in my post.

 

[Romanko]

has anyone tried to put a Planar or Xenotar 75mm 3.5 (e.g. from a Rolleiflex) on a super isolette or a similar unit focusing 75mm folder? Can that work?

Rolleiflex focuses by moving the lens board, while Super Isolette lens is focused by rotating the front element. No, this would not work.

Super Isolettes are neither rare nor expensive. You should be able to find a donor camera with damaged bellows and salvage the lens.

 

[reddesert]

Even if you can transplant the lens cells from one shutter into the same size shutter, there is no guarantee that the rear cell would fit inside the bellows of the folding camera, and the larger front cell will most likely prevent the camera from folding up all the way. In addition to the other problems previously noted about shimming for proper flange-focal distance, and rangefinding.

I don't think Planars and Xenotars are so magical that it is worth the pitfalls. Plus, why use a fast lens with inaccurate focusing/rangefinding? If one did want to find a platform for a Planar or Xenotar type lens, it seems like a better platform would be a camera with a movable front standard (like a Mamiya C tlr, or the Rolleiflex that donated the lens in the first place), or a rigid box that could accept an M42 focusing mount, like the Mercury, Goodman Zone, etc.

 

[Romanko]

or the Rolleiflex that donated the lens in the first place

The idea of sacrificing a far superior Rolleiflex to fix an Agfa folder is very questionable. What are your goals? Are you trying to restore the Agfa? Are you building a custom medium format camera using the Agfa body?

 

[stan_1]

Sometimes you get broken rolleiflexes for far less. Was just thinking, all that counts is the lens and the right focal distance
Also I wouldn‘t sacrifice a super isolette, thats a beautiful camera

 

[Romanko]

Also I wouldn‘t sacrifice a super isolette, thats a beautiful camera

Just wait till you find a suitable donor camera. It took me several years to find this totally wrecked Agfa Billy that I got for A$8.

I only needed the shutter release button and the brilliant finder that were missing from my Agfa Billy, my most used folding camera.

 

[stan_1]

The idea of sacrificing a far superior Rolleiflex to fix an Agfa folder is very questionable. What are your goals? Are you trying to restore the Agfa? Are you building a custom medium format camera using the Agfa body?

My thinking was also that rangefinder folders have the advantage of size, (however compact the rolleiflexes are, they‘re still much chunkier) and the viewfinder (the flipped image on waistlevel finder seems just not my can of beer , and prism finder makes them even heavier).
But it seems like there are a couple variables that would doom such a project, as others have mentioned (will the flap close properly? will the rear of the lens touch the film plane? Can the rangefinder match the focal plane?) I guess I won’t start such a project