Purchasing C-41 Chemistry in (Ontario) Canada

GM Bennett · Oct 25, 2008

Hi, folks -

I've just acquired a used Photo-therm SK-8G (for $500 - good deal, I think). It worked great for the trial run of T-Max B&W film I ran through it, but I really bought it to do my own C-41 (first) and E6 (second).

Can someone point me in the right direction as to the best low-volume source of C-41 chemistry in the GTA or south-western Ontario? Henry's doesn't seem to stock colour chemistry anymore... I'll give Fuji Canada a call next week, but I'm wondering if there's a Canuck on the list who can impart some wisdom in the meantime.

Thanks! Graham

srs5694 · Oct 25, 2008

I'm not Canadian, but I believe that Dead Link Removed (in Quebec) sells C-41 kits, as well as "raw" chemicals if you prefer to mix it yourself. If JD Photochem doesn't pan out and you can't find another Canadian source, you could try Dead Link Removed in New York or Freestyle in California. I'm certain that Freestyle ships internationally, although I can't guarantee that they ship C-41 internationally. I'm not sure about Adorama's international shipping policies, but they do at least stock C-41 products.

Another option is to get friendly with some local minilab operators. I've heard of people getting small orders tacked onto the minilab operators' orders. I've never tried this myself, though.

mabman · Oct 25, 2008

There are some issues getting liquid chems in general shipped across the border (they tend to get labeled "hazardous materials"), but powdered chems in general seem to be OK. JD Photochem might be a good start as they are in Canada, but I asked them about c-41 kits almost a year ago, and was told they no longer make/carry them.

Coincidentally, a few weeks ago I was talking to an older member of the local camera club, and got to talking about film - he said he used to use Unicolor C-41 and E-6 kits and got great results from them. I believe you can still get their kits from their current owner/manufacturer directly on eBay.

I also inquired about Tetanal kit availability in Canada, and was told they've had some financial issues over the years and their kits aren't very well distributed (if at all) in North America generally and Canada specifically.

GM Bennett · Oct 25, 2008

Thanks, guys. I think I'll see if I can order some from the local mini-lab, or direct from Fuji if that doesn't work. The unicolor kits on fleabay are just 500ml and a little pricey.

Because I couldn't wait (new old stuff, you know how it is), today I tried using an old Agfacolor 3-step process in the machine on some even older (exp 1996!) NPS160 4x5 film that was given to me, and was presently surprised to see that it actually worked, with not-too-bad colour shifting. Can't wait to try fresh chemistry with fresh film.

Patrick Latour · Oct 25, 2008

If it can help, have a look at the following link:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/c1001-Color-Chemicals-Color-Print

Look at the 2 last kits at the end of the list. They are the only ones that can be ship over the border.

I place orders on a regular basis with Freestyle and they are amazing. My last 2 orders took 5 working days from Los Angeles to my door in Montreal. Pretty fast. They also answer your questions promptly.

JDphotochem has not updated their price list on their website since 2004, so I bet they do not carry chemicals anymore. Henry's is no more what it used to be.

Hope this help.

gordrob · Oct 26, 2008

Graham - have a look at the Mondrian - Hall web site (formerly Treck-Hall). They have offices in Toronto and Ottawa and stock Kodak chemistry.

http://www.treckhall.com/page.asp?intNodeID=3576&switchlang=true

Gord

Nigel · Oct 26, 2008

Henry's downtown does carry the 5L E-6 kit, and generally keep one or two in stock. Once in a while, they will be out of stock, and you will have to wait a couple of days. Strangley, they do not list the kit on the website. They claim that they will order any Kodak product you want, as long as you supply a product number. I have never tested them on it.

Nick Zentena · Oct 26, 2008

Vistek used to stock stuff downtown. But I haven't been in over a year. Better stock then Henry's for stuff like this last time I was there.

Timothy · Oct 26, 2008

This is where most people "in the know" get their bulk photo-chem supplies in the GTA.

gr82bart · Oct 26, 2008

Nymoc is fantastic if you mix the chems from scratch yourself. Henry's, Vistek, Alden, ElmPro, Treck-Hall in Toronto all had chemistry kits when I visited them over the past year. Mostly B&W, but I did see a couple E-6 kits. Give them all a call. You never know. If not you'll have to resort to the standard US retailers - B&H, Adorama, Helix, Central Camera, Freestyle, Calumet ...

Regards, Art.

GM Bennett · Oct 26, 2008

Wow, thanks again for the help; this is a great resource. Tim/Art - while I have lots of B&W processing experience, I'm a colour processing newbie; can either of you point me to a primer on mixing up C-41 developer/bleach/fix/stabilizer from scratch if I were to buy (dry, I presume?) chems from Nymoc?

Thanks, Graham

srs5694 · Oct 27, 2008

A site that's got formulas for C-41 and RA-4 (developers and blixes) is this one. (The same document appears various other places on the Web.) Its formulas aren't all that close to Kodak's, though. Personally, I use its developers with good results, but I don't use its blixes. (I've tried them but I didn't like the results from the C-41 blix and the RA-4 blix is very weak compared to other formulas I've seen, so I don't trust it.)

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) presents another C-41 formula that purports to get very good results. This site and this Usenet post both have other C-41 formulas. The latter includes bleach and fixer formulas. I have yet to try any of these. Note that mix-it-yourself bleaches are either very expensive or are designed around potassium ferricyanide, which Kodak hasn't used for a long time. For bleach, it's much more sensible to buy it commercially if at all possible. (Bleach is the single most expensive step the C-41 process.)

A very strange developer for C-41 is (there was a url link here which no longer exists) which is a divided developer. "On paper," it's got some nice features (use at 75F rather than 100F, long shelf life, low cost), but in my experience it works inconsistently -- some rolls come out well but others don't. I mention it mainly to point this out and suggest you use something else.

For RA-4, this site has a formula that's supposed to be pretty good; however, it calls for several chemicals that I don't have and that aren't stocked by the usual photochemical suppliers in the US, so I've not tried it.

Mike Wilde · Oct 27, 2008

My source

I run a fujimoto for paper, and a wing lynch for E-6 (I haven't got a spare control card to pervert it for c-41 yet). I do c-41 scratch mixed from chems sourced from Claire at JD Photochem. Excellent service. I am considering going to a commercailly mixed developer though, just to see how good the home brew stack up against ito in my home hand processing regime.

For paper developer I have had good service from the mainline distributor for Kodak around here- Mondrian Hall. They will order, and bill to a visa card, and call you when the stuff comes in. Watch out for back orders if you order more than one thing. Their shipping system presumes that you order form them regualrly, and will ship the back ordered item on the next shipment. There ia also a hazmat shipping fee. I have done pickup, to avoid the shipping and hazmat fee.

More recently, I have befriended a local minimlab guy, who is willing to add my occasional order to his order. Then I just pay a small amount of the shipping charge, and help keep his order up. I tell him when I am getting low on something a month or two in advance, and he uses my needs to help out his volume order discount. I drop in and peruse his distributors binder to figure out the SKU's then check the distributors (Mondrian or Fuji) to make sure when I order one, that I won't have to get a case of six, etc.

GM Bennett · Oct 28, 2008

Many thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I contacted Mondrian-Hall, who are quite helpful but I would probably have to order a minimum order way beyond my present low-volume requirements. The sales lady noted, however, that they supplied my local (small town) little mini-lab with Kodak chemistry, and on contacting the lab owner he has very kindly agreed to mix me up a small batch of C41 chemistry to get me going. Once I get the C41 process dialed-in, I'll figure out sourcing Fuji E6 chemistry.

I should also note that I spoke to a Photo-Therm rep who was very helpful and friendly. They can replace my older program chip with one for my own B&W film/developer preferences. Trivia-wise, I learned the provenance of my Photo-Therm unit - it was part of a 200 unit National Guard order, many of which units stayed in the box until they were sold out of the service, as it were.

Nick Zentena · Oct 28, 2008

GM Bennett said:
can either of you point me to a primer on mixing up C-41 developer/bleach/fix/stabilizer from scratch if I were to buy (dry, I presume?) chems from

There is no point for fix or bleach. Both are fairly cheap if you buy in the 5 litre bottles [3.8l?] and should keep quite a while. Plus the fix can be used for b&w to.

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm

But no point for anything but the developer.

GM Bennett · Oct 29, 2008

Thanks, Nick. My local guy gave me a gallon of developer, bleach, fix, and stabilizer for (CDN) $10, $72, $8 and $5 respectively. The only "ouch" cost was for the bleach, as opposed to the developer. Does anyone mix up their own bleach solution? If so, is it worth the bother?

Nick Zentena · Oct 29, 2008

If you buy concentrate and replenish bleach it will cheaper in a bottle from Fuji or Kodak then raw stock. The low replenishment Fuji bleach I use I think needs 5ml per roll of film [might be a touch less] Plus the stuff keeps.

Replenishment is easy.

Mike Wilde · Oct 29, 2008

Bleach options

Wow - I had not realised it was that steep. I found at the local hazmat depot on the freebee shelf 3 concentrate to make 5L of e-6 bleach. It works fine for c-41 too. 6' to bleach, 25 8x10's worth of film per litre, per Kodak.

Prior to that I used to mix a c-22 bleach - 80g Pot Ferricyanide, 20g Pot Bromide per litre. 2.5' to bleach. I used to mix 2l at once - one l was working solution, which I replenished at a rate of 45mL of per 8x10's worth of film; the other 1l jug was the source of the replenisher. When the replenisher jug was empty I would take the overflow and fully replenished working solution to the HHW depot.

Once my cache of E6 bleach is down to balance the other E6 chems I have cached I will be going back to the c-22 bleach.

srs5694 · Oct 29, 2008

GM Bennett said:
Thanks, Nick. My local guy gave me a gallon of developer, bleach, fix, and stabilizer for (CDN) $10, $72, $8 and $5 respectively. The only "ouch" cost was for the bleach, as opposed to the developer. Does anyone mix up their own bleach solution? If so, is it worth the bother?

The last time I checked, mix-it-yourself bleach was more expensive than the ready-mixed stuff, at least if you mix it using ferric ammonium EDTA. In the formulas I've got, that stuff adds about US$3-$6 to the cost of a liter of bleach, depending on the formula. Add the other ingredients and the total cost for a liter is in the US$7-$9 range, depending on the formula. At that time, you could get a gallon of Kodak Bleach III for $27, or $7/liter. Kodak's since changed their lineup, and the cost of raw ingredients has no doubt changed. Given the prices you quoted it might be worth looking at the costs for the raw ingredients anew. Here are a couple of bleach formulas:

http://www.subclub.org/darkroom/process2.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.photo.film+labs/msg/27909efe01d60fd6
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I've never used any of those, but I trust the last one most, since it was presented by PE, who worked for Kodak for many years designing, among other things, bleaches. It's also the most expensive of the three formulas.

If you're desperate to save money, you could try a ferricyanide bleach, but Kodak's not used these for years, so modern films haven't been tested with them. There's a formula embedded in one of the earlier references.

As Nick says, you can use a replenishment regime to cut bleach costs. There's a Kodak publication that provides instructions for this. It calls for using a bleach replenisher but I've heard of people using regular bleach for this. Lately I've been using a non-Kodak (Silver Pixel) bleach replenisher. IIRC, Kodak's publication says to dump 69ml of bleach per 36-exposure roll of 35mm film. That works out to CDN$1.31 per roll, given the price you quoted -- steep, but a lot better than the CDN$4.75 per roll it'd cost if you used the bleach one-shot in a 250ml tank.

Nick Zentena · Oct 29, 2008

My bleach replenisher is just undiluted bleach. No idea if other products are different.

GM Bennett · Nov 1, 2008

Thanks to all who replied to this thread. I processed some fresh(er) 35mm test film today, some (only slightly out-of-date) Superia 200 I'd bought on ebay, with the chemicals supplied by my local minilab guy, and was pleased to see nice negs with good density come out at the end of the run. Sample attached - my Spiderman-obsessed 4 year-old again, sorry about my poor flatbed scanning skills. Bokeh courtesy of Ann - thanks again for the 105mm Nikkor, Ann!

stevewillard · Nov 2, 2008

Kodak now recommends using FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry for one-shot drum processing. The publication that shows this is http://www.kodak.com/global/en/busin...?pq-path=12549. I believe the quantities are 10L bottles (I think) which is about 2.5 gallons.

All FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry is premixed so there is no mixing, and it has oxidations inhibitors in it for low utilization

I have had really good luck storing color developers in floating lid containers. I stored 13L of Kodak RA4 RT replenisher in a floating lid container for 8 months and had 1L left over, and it was still clear.

All FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry is premixed so there is no mixing, and it has oxidations inhibitors in it for low utilization which is similar to RA4 RT developer, so again, it should store well in a floating lid container. I still have tree Kodak one gallon kits for C-41, so I have not used the FLEXICOLOR SM chemistry yet. However, I may order some and make a characteristic curve (CC) using both chemistries to see if there are any differences. I then will store the remaining developer in a floating lid container and inspect it once a month and monitor any color changes that indicate oxidation. I will probably also make CCs for each month to more accurately determine how long the developer will last in a floating lid container.

You can get FLEXICOLOR SM from Denver Pro Photo. Their prices are not bad, but not as good as B&H. According to Kodak you can use the bleach twice without compromising its performance, but I would call Kodak about this because that was the bleach III one gallon mix. I do not know if that would work with the Bleach SM chemistry. Denver Pro Photo will ship anywhere, and their number is (866)-360-4940. Ask for Victor.

Purchasing C-41 Chemistry in (Ontario) Canada

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Patrick Latour

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Mike Wilde

srs5694

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Purchasing C-41 Chemistry in (Ontario) Canada

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