Purchasing and shipping liquid chemistry in winter

Steve Goldstein · Jan 21, 2019

In general I don't order liquid chemistry in winter because I'm afraid the cold might cause some components to irreversibly precipitate out, or perhaps freezing might cause the containers to burst. I know it's not an issue with glacial Acetic acid or Propylene glycol, and believe it's not a concern with Ammonium thiosulfate (but maybe it's an issue because it's dissolved in water), but what about things like Liquidol and KRST concentrate?

Or am I just overthinking this on an extremely cold day (5F, -15C)?

CMoore · Jan 21, 2019

What do you care if the container Freezes and bursts, breaks its mooring and falls off the ship, or is stored next to a furnace and explodes.?
The shipper will send you a new one.
Do you not trust the Dealer/Shipper, or do you not believe they would give you a refund, maybe.?
The whole world ships perishables and temperature sensitive materials 24-7.......

Steve Goldstein · Jan 21, 2019

I care because a having a container burst during shipping when that could have been prevented by my waiting a few months is a waste of resources. It creates a mess that someone has to deal with. And it costs me time waiting for its replacement to arrive.

I care because chemistry that arrives appearing to be in perfect condition but that doesn't perform as expected because of cold damage is an annoyance, as well as a waste of resources. And it costs me time waiting for its replacement to arrive.

I care because chemistry that arrives at my door rendered obviously useless by cold during shipping is a waste of resources. And it costs me time waiting for its replacement to arrive.

In any of the above situations, the same damage could occur to a replacement shipment, creating a further waste of time and resources.

We live in a world of finite time (our lifespans) and resources. I'd rather not waste either.

CMoore · Jan 21, 2019

Steve Goldstein said:
.......Or am I just overthinking this on an extremely cold day (5F, -15C)?

In that case, i would simply refer you to the last sentence of your OP.
good luck

jim appleyard · Jan 21, 2019

Steve, I live in NY, just south of the Adirondack Park and it's a +9F right now. I've ordered chems from Artcraft and they been delivered just fine. However, it's only been Ammon. Thio that I've ordered and I get it next day from Artcraft as they're only about 50 miles from me. I also know I'm going to be home when UPS delivers. I don't know at what temps liquid chems will freeze at, but I'm going to take a guess and say it's a bit lower than plain water. If being home to get the delivery is a problem, have it sent to your workplace or have a neighbor pick up the package for you?

Yeah, I wouldn't like a semi-frozen mess on my front porch, either.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 21, 2019

I'm curious if anyone here has experienced any damage to chemicals due to cold or freezing. I certainly haven't, but I live in a milder climate. My concern is more with heat damage in the summer.

Doremus

bdial · Jan 21, 2019

I haven't had a problem with liquid shipments in the winter, though for one last year during some similar intense cold, I put a note on the door asking that the package be left inside the storm door.
Like Doremus, I'm more concerned with heat damage in the summer, but that's not been a big problem either. One option would be to request the shipment be held for pickup at whatever carrier's delivery facility.

cmacd123 · Jan 22, 2019

Glacial acetic Acid will freeze at refrigerator temperatures. it is probably the most sensitive to the cold.

jvo · Jan 24, 2019

as others,every time i order from freestyle or b&h i've thought of the issue of heat... florida heat! I've always thought that in this mail order age that my film, paper or chemicals might sit in a hot truck at some point during delivery, be damaged, and not perform properly.

Well, I keep waiting for it, and in 20 years it hasn't happened yet - i won't stop wondering though, each time i hit "place order."

CMoore · Jan 24, 2019

Some of you guys need to read the Chicken Little Story again.....

Steve Goldstein · Jan 25, 2019

As the OP, I was specifically inquiring about the possible bad effects of severe cold on liquid chemistry. The drift of the discussion to heat effects doesn't really address this....

RalphLambrecht · Jan 25, 2019

Steve Goldstein said:
In general I don't order liquid chemistry in winter because I'm afraid the cold might cause some components to irreversibly precipitate out, or perhaps freezing might cause the containers to burst. I know it's not an issue with glacial Acetic acid or Propylene glycol, and believe it's not a concern with Ammonium thiosulfate (but maybe it's an issue because it's dissolved in water), but what about things like Liquidol and KRST concentrate?

Or am I just overthinking this on an extremely cold day (5F, -15C)?

another benefit for people who prepare their own processing baths from raw chemicals, not to mention having them immediately at operating temperatures.

guangong · Jan 25, 2019

I have been getting my chemicals from Photographers Formulary for years. They are located in Montana. If wide swings of temple from hot to cold has any effect on darkroom chemicals, they would have been out of business long ago.

Agulliver · Jan 25, 2019

I would assume that the purveyors of chemicals and the organisations they choose to transport them know what they're doing. Chemicals are shipped around the world, and have been for decades.

I know I live in the temperate UK....but in my job I am ordering and taking delivery of chemicals year round (school senior science tech). A few specifically need to be stored in a certain temperature range (I have some really nasty oxidisers and explosive chemicals)...the suppliers know how to send it.

Steve Goldstein · Jan 25, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
another benefit for people who prepare their own processing baths from raw chemicals, not to mention having them immediately at operating temperatures.

For the most part I do mix from raw chemicals, but there are some items that can only be purchased in liquid form - KRST, HC-110, Liquidol, TF-5, and Ammonium thiosulfate come immediately to mind, as well as Glacial Acetic acid, Propylene glycol, and TEA. I know those last three are fine in the cold, and Ron (private email) believes that Liquidol will be OK too. I suppose I should simply ask the suppliers regarding each specific chemical.

pentaxuser · Jan 25, 2019

Steve, I admit that as another temperate climate user i.e. U.K. I have little concern about the transportation of liquid chemicals in winter but surely what is key here is what is the transport, storage and method in the U.S. The most important part being transport. Do the chemicals travel in vehicles that are likely allow them to freeze in transport? As far as storage is concerned I'd have thought that this was indoors and at least partially heated, given the stuff then has to be picked by humans. Is it not possible to find out the answers? Only you know what happens on delivery to your home.

Given how cold it gets in certain areas of the U.S. in winter, I'd have thought that carriage, storage and delivery have been arranged so freezing does not occur for those chemicals that suffer if it does freeze. Certainly in the 14/15 years I have been here on Photrio I cannot recall any issues with winter deliveries arising.

pentaxuser

howardpan · Jan 25, 2019

I checked the data sheets for Ilford’s selenium toner and rapid fixer. Both suggest a minimum storage temperature of 5C. I read online the airplane cargo hold is typically heated to 7C to prevent liquids from freezing. While I didn’t find any information on UPS or Fedex cargo van temperature, I think your biggest risk really comes from having the package left outside of your house after the delivery has been made. I think it’s best to buy locally during winter given where you are.

winger · Jan 25, 2019

When I lived in MA, if I had a concern, I just had it delivered to my work address. Then it never sat on an outside porch. If I know the temps will be really high or really low, I wait a week - the weather will definitely change.

For years, I had my crime scene kit in the trunk of my car in case I got called out. One of the things in my kit was a small plastic dropper bottle of 50/50 glacial acetic and water. In the years I was up there, that only froze once. Shipments of photochemicals I've gotten have been better packed than my kit was - it was just a plastic toolbox with the stuff inside.

cmacd123 · Jan 26, 2019

being in Canada, and not trusting anything, I try to estimate my needs twice a tear and order in the spring and fall. it was easier when the local Henry's had stuff in stock, and it was their problem to get it there safely.

Wayne · Jan 26, 2019

I often leave my house unheated in winter and it drops well below freezing and often below zero F outside. Hydroquinone solutions may crystalize but they will do that when its in the 40s or 50's, and I've never had a single PETE or HDPE bottle burst, ever. Even completely full ones. There was some precipiate in my RA4 developer this year but it worked fine.

I would order and wouldn't worry about it. Of course standard disclaimers apply.

Timberwolf · May 3, 2022

jvo said:
as others,every time i order from freestyle or b&h i've thought of the issue of heat... florida heat! I've always thought that in this mail order age that my film, paper or chemicals might sit in a hot truck at some point during delivery, be damaged, and not perform properly.

Well, I keep waiting for it, and in 20 years it hasn't happened yet - i won't stop wondering though, each time i hit "place order."

Has anyone had an issue with heat damaged film or paper when delivered by UPS or FedEx? I have always been paranoid about this to the point of driving 90 miles to the nearest photo store to avoid shipping. (Can anyone point me to a more appropriate thread for this question?)

gone · May 3, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
I'm curious if anyone here has experienced any damage to chemicals due to cold or freezing

Never, not once. But that is my experiences, someone else may have. Come to think of it, no one has even mentioned that to me.

I've always heard that if the chemicals get too cold they may form crystals that may not dissolve later on, so my chemicals have always been stored at room temperatures.

How they got to me is not my concern, that is solely the responsibility of the seller/shippers.

Sirius Glass · May 3, 2022

The chemicals we purchase are ionized solutions so that alone should add some freezing protection.

cmacd123 · May 3, 2022

Living in Ottawa, the 3rd worst capital city in the world for weather. I always plan for two yearly orders in May and October.. summer is +30C or Higher, Winter is -25C or lower. But we are safe from invasion as you have to live here to stand the weather.

Purchasing and shipping liquid chemistry in winter

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