Purchasing a used Epson R1800

RowanBloemhof · Jul 8, 2014

Hi guys.

Im new to your branch of the pug. I have been member of Apug for some time now. But am starting out with some more work in digital photography. This as an end for producing alt process negatives. For carbonprinting to be exact.

For a few weeks now ive been using laser prints as negatives for my carbon printing. This works ok. But leaves alot of desires in the sense of dynamic range and resolution. Also using a laserprinter causes alot of issues with ugly dither patterns.

So ive been looking for a good second hand printer for some time now. And my eye has fallen on a used epson R1800. According to the seller its still in good shape, but will need a cleaning.

In the past this printer was used for dye sub printing on Tshirts and such. A field of work i am totally unexperienced with. Hence is my question. If this printer has been used with dye sub inks. Do you reckon there has been mayor modifications done on the printer. Or can i simply clean the channels with a cleaning cartridge, and then put back in the normal ultrachrome catridges?

My concern mainly is that the dye sub inks might have weared the heads down faster. Or cause a higher chance of non recoverable cloggings.

I would be glad to hear any opinions from you guys.

Thanks in advance.
Rowan

L Gebhardt · Jul 9, 2014

Welcome. I doubt any changes were made to the printer to print with dye inks, but I would ask the seller to be sure. My guess is the dye ink won't wear the heads faster, but it's only a guess. Make sure it's not clogged before you buy it.

pschwart · Jul 10, 2014

The R1800 is not a dye sublimation printer. If you mean the printer was used with dye inks instead of the native Ultrachrome pigment ink, no modifications were required and shouldn't be a problem. Make sure the printer can produce a *perfect* auto nozzle check *before* you buy. Blocked heads can be very difficult to clean, and any defects will almost certainly show up in your negatives.

RowanBloemhof · Jul 10, 2014

Thanks for the answer guys.

I can indeed understand the printer isnt readily made for dye sub printing. As i understand this works with a heat transfer system. Which doesn't sound like the hardware readily installed in an inkjet. What i do know is that the current owner was using it to print on tshirts and such. Perhaps he prints the inks with the printer. And uses another device for the transfer. I really wouldn't know.

Anyway il just ask for a test page/nozzle check indeed.

Philip: Funny how i thought i might ask some questions here, instead of on the B&S forum. Just to not overstay my so far warm welcome there. Just to find out your active here as well=D

Rowan

pschwart · Jul 10, 2014

There is no place to hide Many participate on multiple sites including APUG, DPUG, B&S, Yahoo groups, and others. The R1800 is getting pretty long in the tooth and if it breaks down, it probably won't be cost effective to repair. One might have expected the R1900 and R2000 to be equally good for printing digital negatives, but they are not.
Here's a tip for printers that have seen a lot of use: the desktop printers dump cleaning cycle ink onto an absorbent pad inside the printer case that cannot be easily replaced. At some point the user gets an end of life error from the printer and it ceases to print. Recommendation: install an external waste tank and reset the waste counter. These are both simple tasks that will extend the usable life of the printer. Do an online search for instructions. You will be amazed how much ink is actually wasted. At something like $1200 USD/liter, this is what keeps Epson in business.

jeffreyg · Jul 11, 2014

Philip is quite correct about the ink pads. I might add that the near end of life message will one day just appear and if you ignore it the printer will stop at some time. It happened with my 2200. I thought this would be an opportunity to buy a 3880 which I really don't need but after some research I located an excellent technician who replaced the pads and did whatever maintenance was needed for a reasonable $165 including pickup and delivery with a three day turn around. He told me that the printer keeps track of how much printing has been done and the notice will come up at some point that has been predetermined by Epson. A big $$$$ saving over the 3880 and the printer worked like brand new (he provided an Epson test print that was very impressive). My searching around indicated that changing the ink pads could be a pretty messy operation if you don't know what you are doing which would have been my case. I do print something at least once a week even if it's just a test page because as I understand the cleaning cycles waste ink.

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RowanBloemhof · Jul 11, 2014

Yea. Ive read some things about these end of life messages. There is suposed to be some tool that allows you to wipe the print counter. That should atleast bypass that message. This however does not repair wear and tear.

Regarding those inkpads. It surely must be a messy job to replace or clean them. I have read guides about it though how to do it. There are those that managed to clean it using a syringe filled with windex. Still not something i rather look forward to=D

Surely however i will try to inspect the printer before buying. Trying to detirmine how filled or messy these pads already are.

Basicly my current idea is simply to buy a printer with minimal wear for a low price. Then if the day comes it stops to function i might simply find a new one 2nd hand. But who knows, by that time i might have the budget for for instance a 3880.

pschwart · Jul 11, 2014

There is software to reset the waste ink counter so you can keep printing, but if you don't redirect the waste to an external tank, eventually it will just muck up the inside of the printer or leak out of the case. Adding an external tank took me about 15 minutes, and all that was needed was a small plastic bottle with a screw on top, and a couple of feet of aquarium air hose. Adding the tank is far simpler, and more effective, than disassembling the printer to replace the waste pads.

L Gebhardt · Jul 11, 2014

RowanBloemhof said:
Yea. Ive read some things about these end of life messages. There is suposed to be some tool that allows you to wipe the print counter. That should atleast bypass that message. This however does not repair wear and tear.

Regarding those inkpads. It surely must be a messy job to replace or clean them. I have read guides about it though how to do it. There are those that managed to clean it using a syringe filled with windex. Still not something i rather look forward to=D

Surely however i will try to inspect the printer before buying. Trying to detirmine how filled or messy these pads already are.

Basicly my current idea is simply to buy a printer with minimal wear for a low price. Then if the day comes it stops to function i might simply find a new one 2nd hand. But who knows, by that time i might have the budget for for instance a 3880.

There are two types of pads, at least in the 3880. The first is where the heads spray the waste ink. These are the ones people clean with Windex, and look more like sponges than pads. But these don't hold the ink, rather they direct it by tubes down to the large cotton pads in the bottom of the printer (or the maintenance cartridge in the 3880). Once those pads are full you probably just want to replace them rather than trying to clean out the ink.

RowanBloemhof · Jul 11, 2014

Well. Right now my eye has fallen for an R2400. I can pick it up at the same price as the R1800. But this one is including 60 sheets of a4 photo paper and 11 spare cartridges(which color i am not sure). From what im told the owner had it serviced last year. So with a bit of luck any filled pads would be replaced.

I can only find 1 substantial downside of this model. And thats its ink usage. But atleast thats made up for in the form of the supplied cartridges.

With a bit of luck im gonna be picking it up tomorrow.

Feeling like a small child at christmas eve. Waiting for tomorrow morning^^

RowanBloemhof · Jul 12, 2014

Alright then. I just got home from picking up the printer. As far as i can tell this beauty is in good condition. Nearly no dust at all. And the inkpads are pretty clean. As i said, these must have been replaced already not too long ago. Made a test print prior to purchase. All channels look nice and solid. No clogged nozzles as far as i can tell.

Tonight im gonna be hooking it up to my pc. And first of all perhaps trying to make some room.

Thanks for the help so far.

Rowan

RowanBloemhof · Jul 13, 2014

I got the printer installed now. Seems to be working nicely. I printed some photo's just to try it out(positives). And gotta say im quite amazed how well abw mode works. For photos that is.

However i just tried some teststrips made with Chart Throb and these were a bit less fortunate. I made a print in abw mode all standard. I used some generic photo paper to print on. Just till i receive a package of Pictorico OHP. These results were somewhat disappointing. I made a base exposure test using the photopaper base together with my stepwedge. For the bigger part the greyscale looks good. Nice and deep blacks. However it seems somewhat harder to reach a solid white. I reason this must have to do with the fact that the black inks dont fully absorb the uv light.

Now reading up on the rdn method i should use a yellow as blocking ink for dig negatives. So i just made a print as they suggested. Put a layer on top of the chart throb wedge. Put to screen mode and set 100% yellow. Color code #FFF200.

However, when i print this on paper. I am unable to differentiate any density between the blocks in the top. That being the darkest/densest row.

Now should i instead of using the screen layer mode be using a blend between blacks and yellow?

pschwart · Jul 13, 2014

Here are some things to try to achieve sufficient density for paper white:
- use the color controls in ABW to add the yellow (instead of a separate screen layer in Photoshop)
- select a matte paper in the Epson driver so matte black will be selected instead of photo black
- if the 2400 driver allows it, you can try increasing the ink load, but I would do this last

My experience with ABW on the 3800 was that it didn't work as well as colorized negatives, but it can give you a taste of what is possible. You might want to consider Mark Nelson's Precision Digital Negatives (PDN). Even if you end up using a different workflow, the manual is an excellent dissertation on digital negatives and worth reading. You can use Quadtone RIP for finer ink control, but I think colorized negatives using the Epson driver will get you good results much quickly.

RowanBloemhof · Jul 13, 2014

Thanks Philip.

Next thing il try is using the color setting for ABW. It looks like that might be what i want to start off with. Using Matte could also be a good option, but il hold that off till i get my hands on some OHP sheets.

Or on second hand. It seems i currently only got Pk black. This together with Lk and LLk.

Regarding Mark nelsons PDN. I have been very tempted to buy his book. Im afraid though that for this month im trough my allowance for photography^^ Especially with the new printer and all. But as said, i have been tempted to buy it. From what i hear it is one of the best documented methods available, and definitely worth every penny.

pschwart · Jul 13, 2014

I had no idea that you have to manually swap MK and PK in the 2400. In the 1800 and the 3800, all the inks are present and the printer automatically selects the correct black based on your media selection. You didn't get a full ink set, so maybe you can get some $$$ back from the seller -- that MK will set you back about $20 USD. You will need MK some so you can proof and print on matte paper. In the 3800, MK has a lot more UV blocking so you might need it for negatives. In most of the Epsons I have owned, PK is much smoother (less grainy) so you will need to experiment.

RowanBloemhof · Jul 13, 2014

Well Its a simple case of caveat emptor. But thanks for the suggestion. I clearly inspected everything prior to buying it. Its a matter of what you see is what you get, and im afraid i simply didnt notice. I did get 10 other cartridges along with the installed ones though. C M M Y Pk Lk Lk LLk LLk are the once i got surplus.

Its one of the downsides of this printer it seems. As you gotta switch Mk and Pk the head does a full clean. Draining all pipes of old inkt. So i reckon i'm gonna pick a favorite so to say. Which i think as you said will be Pk rather then Mk. i've seen that smoothness you talk about on a normal b/w print i made this morning. I was rather astonished of the deep and neutral blacks.

pschwart · Jul 13, 2014

I haven't seen any issue with MK graininess on paper prints, probably because the dot gain masks that. Everything in the negative shows when you are printing carbon, even the driver's dithering pattern, so keep the printer heads aligned and always do a nozzle check before printing. MK works very well for me if I am making platinum/palladium prints.

RowanBloemhof · Jul 21, 2014

Pff.

So for the last few days ive been busy making digi negs. Ive been using the ABW mode with 75% extra yellow. Which is the maximum amount of yellow you can add. So far i cant complain about the dmax reached by that. I dont have actual figure as i lack a transmission densitometer.

ive been using my newly aquired epson v300 scanner to liniearize my negs. Which works pretty good. Some work needs to be done on that part still, figuring out all the scanning options is gonna take me a while. So far ive been using chart throb to make the liniearization curves.

Yesterday i made a print on relatively small size. 10x15cm. The results were rather good if i may say so myself(click). I mean in the highlights some work can be done still, but im pretty pleased about the tonality already.

Now today i decided to make a somewhat bigger print, just to see how it would work out. A 10x15 is nice, but does not really give a clear impression. So i sensitized an 8x11 piece of tissue and printed a negative. Since i havent printed such a sized negative before, i came to the horrifying conclusion i was seeing pizza wheels. I thought oh well, there barely visisble. Lets just see what happens.

So after exposure and all. The print was lying in the tray developing. There the pizza wheels showed again, clearly more prenounced then on the negative. click.

The odd thing about it tho is. The wheels seem to appear not so much on the parts which have ink on them. But rather on the microporous coat of the ohp sheet itself. As you can see, there as visisble in the dark as in the light parts.

Now im really curious if theres anything to be done about this. Ive already ordered better ohp sheets online. The ones from permajet. The same once sold by silverprint uk. Pictorico i'm afraid is not really an option. Including shipment i almost pay €3.70 for a single sheet of pictorico(thats almost 5 dollars per sheet). Which i reckon is rather outrageous.

On suggestion of others on the web ive tried using the front load with the current sheets, this however does not seem to accept the sheet. It doesnt even feed trough. Even after setting manual front feed in the printer settings.

I would be highly apreciative if anyone could think of a way to fix or atleast decrease these pizza wheels.

pschwart · Jul 21, 2014

The pizza wheel marks are caused by the star wheels contacting the ink on the media before it has dried sufficiently. Laying down less ink and pausing the print head are useful strategies. The 3800 driver has these options, but I'm not familiar with the 2400 driver. Using the front feed can eliminate the marks, too. It might be necessary to attach the film to a backing sheet so that it feeds correctly.

jeffreyg · Jul 21, 2014

You guys are way ahead of me technology wise. But I have made some beautiful pt/pd prints having enlarged negatives using Dan Burkholder's PS plugin and just tweaking the negatives in PS. I made them On Pictorico OHP Transparent film. While my first choice for enlarging negatives is x-ray duplicating film there are some that won't work without PS editing first. I use an Epson 2200 with the Epson inks (Photo Black -- I don't bother with Matte Black). I don't really do anything special and get very good results despite my lack of expertise.

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RowanBloemhof · Jul 21, 2014

Thanks Philip.

Tomorrow il try printing a negative trough the front load. It already has a backing paper, but this seems to thin still. I might just tape a piece of carton to the backing paper and see if it registers it.

Oh and Jeffrey. Although what you say might be true about philip or Larry. But for the bigger part im as much in the dark as you are. Ive been busy with carbon printing for about 2 months now. Before i did some experients with gum, to find out that isnt really my thing. Having some affinity with technology has proven a pro though.

pschwart · Jul 21, 2014

I'm not familiar with any OHP that has a backing sheet. Maybe this film just does not perform well for digital negatives. Inkpress, Pictorico, and the Arista film sold by Freestyle in the US hold a lot of ink and dry quickly, so pizza wheels are not a daily problem. Inkpress and Pictorico are
7 mil stock and load reasonably well in the front feeder of my 3800 without a backing sheet. I do get the occasional misfeed, but I am too lazy to fool with backing sheets. If your OHP is thinner I could see that being a problem. My 1800 and 1400 both load OHP reliably using the regular sheet feeder (they don't have a front loader).

pschwart · Jul 21, 2014

jeffreyg said:
You guys are way ahead of me technology wise. But I have made some beautiful pt/pd prints having enlarged negatives using Dan Burkholder's PS plugin and just tweaking the negatives in PS. I made them On Pictorico OHP Transparent film. While my first choice for enlarging negatives is x-ray duplicating film there are some that won't work without PS editing first. I use an Epson 2200 with the Epson inks (Photo Black -- I don't bother with Matte Black). I don't really do anything special and get very good results despite my lack of expertise.

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Methods like PDN and RNP provide a structured way to determine the most effective color pack for UV blocking, and this makes for a less extreme correction curve and better control of shadow and highlight separation. When I attended one of Dan's workshops (2002?) he was using a basic amber color. This worked, but it wasn't always optimal. If he has updated his workflow -- he had only a template back then, no plugin -- then these comments may not be relevant

Purchasing a used Epson R1800

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