Provia 100f project with flash

ericdan · Apr 5, 2023

I want to photograph the evolution of a pair of jeans over a year on provia 100f.
Take the same shot every 10 days to fill the roll.
It’ll be at home on a tripod with different light conditions every time.

I’ve done something like this project before when my wife was pregnant with our son. I shot that on Tri-X and it was quite difficult getting the exposure right each time.

The goal is to have coherent exposure throughout the roll. The final product will be the entire roll of film itself not the individual shots.
I’m planning to shoot this on a Pentax KX with a 50mm 1.7 lens and a simple on camera flash.

Will this work with flash or do I need to worry about the different lighting conditions each time?

koraks · Apr 6, 2023

ericdan said:
Will this work with flash or do I need to worry about the different lighting conditions each time?

As long as you block out any available light, and your flash unit is consistent, it should work.
If you balance available light and flash, evidently the differences in available light will play a role.
Frankly, in your case, I'd make a studio setup with one or more off-camera strobes, document everything, and recreate the scene for each shot. No available light, only strobes.

BrianShaw · Apr 6, 2023

What are you calling a “simple” on-camera strobe? Will the strobe be used in manual, with GN computation, or an autoexposure mode? A flash meter might be useful to give more knowledge about the actual flash exposure.

ericdan · Apr 6, 2023

BrianShaw said:
What are you calling a “simple” on-camera strobe? Will the strobe be used in manual, with GN computation, or an autoexposure mode? A flash meter might be useful to give more knowledge about the actual flash exposure.

I have a Nikon SB-E

wiltw · Apr 7, 2023

The Nikon SBE is an 'auto' mode flash, using a built-in photosensor to read light reflected back from the scene to determine when to turn off flash output providing 'proper' exposure.
If you

place your camera with lens at 'same FL' every time,
at a consistent distance from the subject,
and the subject is placed in front of a consistent background,
and use a consistent aperture size and shutter speed,

you should get consistent exposures from session to session.

ericdan · Apr 7, 2023

Wow perfect! That’s exactly what I wanted.
Thanks!

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2023

That flash will be consistent in your application as long as you ensure that it is set correctly for the camera model distance between flash to subject. It will automatically correct for session-to-session "consistency" deviations. Ensure that your aperture is set correctly for the film speed you are using and proper synch speed (or slower). Use fresh batteries.

In casae you don't ahve the manual already:

https://www.cameramanuals.org/flashes_meters/nikon_speedlight_sb-e.pdf

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2023

One last thought for your consideration. The SB-E is a very low powered strobe and has rather limited maximum distance. Before committing to that strobe for your project ensure that the framing distance you desire will be within that constraint. A higher-powered strobe might be worth considering.

Given that the SB-E is designed to work with a couple of old Nikons and you are using a Pentax, which may limit you to a 10 foot distance, another simple-affordable strobe like a Vivitar 283/285 might be a better option. At GN 80 or so you’ll not have many limitations to worry.

koraks · Apr 7, 2023

BrianShaw said:
A higher-powered strobe might be worth considering.

If another strobe is going to enter the picture, I'd really consider getting one that is controlled manually. A very basic studio strobe would fit the bill. Auto-exposure can work in the way you described, but it's a possible factor of uncertainty added to the mix. Especially when working with slide film, I'd try to eliminate such factors wherever possible.

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2023

Sure… a flash meter too!

Having lots of experience with transparency film and auto-exposure flashes gives me a high confidence that they will perform in this situation. It’s important to understand how they work and their assumptions/constraints. The only time I ever experienced failure was when setting camera or strobe incorrectly and when using in a totally dark environment (underground mines). Both rookie mistakes that are easily corrected.

Testing is a very valuable effort before committing to any solution.

wiltw · Apr 7, 2023

BrianShaw said:
One last thought for your consideration. The SB-E is a very low powered strobe and has rather limited maximum distance.

The SBE Guide Number is 17 meters...that equates to 58 feet. If you shoot 7' from the subject, you use f/8 with ISO 100 film if flash is fired at full power.
However the SBE does not have a Manual mode, its operation always uses its photosensor Auto.

BrianShaw · Apr 7, 2023

Looking at the label on back of meter, the FE/FM setting is used for all but Nikon EM cameras. The auto flash range (2 to 10 feet) doesn’t indicate quite as much light being produced as you suggest. Whatever it might produce in a manual mode is a moot point.

10 feet maximum is a bit limiting.

But if you are contesting my use of the term “very low power” then I understand. It is lower power than some other alternatives was my intended point.

ericdan · Apr 8, 2023

I’m gonna with a 50mm so I won’t be too far away. Maybe 2 meters.
The other light option I have is the attached one. No idea how to use it but I can get it used from a friend for cheap.

Ian C · Apr 8, 2023

This might help.

https://www.paulcbuff.com/manuals/Flashunits/alienbees.pdf

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 8, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Sure… a flash meter too!

Having lots of experience with transparency film and auto-exposure flashes gives me a high confidence that they will perform in this situation. It’s important to understand how they work and their assumptions/constraints. The only time I ever experienced failure was when setting camera or strobe incorrectly and when using in a totally dark environment (underground mines). Both rookie mistakes that are easily corrected.

Testing is a very valuable effort before committing to any solution.

Why was the mine a problem? Can similar issues occur in vary dark above ground venues?

BrianShaw · Apr 8, 2023

ericdan said:
I’m gonna with a 50mm so I won’t be too far away. Maybe 2 meters.

Run a test to verify that your equipment and setup will perform as you desire. You shouldn’t have a problem with the SB-E if you like the look of a camera-mounted and/or unmodified strobe.

The Alien Bee, or other strobe, could give you option to bounce or soften the strobe light a bit. It depends on what look you want to achieve.

Have you considered a good old fashioned lightbulb and correction filter? Probably not optimal but another option to consider. Inexpensive, easy to set up, and easy to replicate a consistent lighting configuration.

ericdan · Apr 9, 2023

Wow guys. Thanks so much for all the ideas. And the pdf manuals! I didn’t have those.
I’m
I want to get this right. The jeans project is kind of a test run for pregnancy number 2.
A buddy of mine gave me a LED constant light source and a stand. I will get the alien bee strobe above with triggers from him as well. Also got stands for a backdrop from him. The only thing I need is the backdrop itself. Looks to be $50 or 6,600 yen here.

Anyways, the LED seems easy to control but doesn’t have enough power for a 100 speed film.
I’ll try with the strobe next. I’ll try to cut all ambient light out and then only light with the strobe. I have a digital body I can use to meter and test exposure.

I love the lightbulb idea too but have a feeling that’ll be even weaker than the LED light source.

BrianShaw · Apr 9, 2023

Two more things for you to consider:

With strobe, either one of your choices, don’t bother trying to cut out all natural light. It’s a battle that’s not worth it. Your subject, if human, might not appreciate it either. Just ensure that the strobe is the predominant light source. The strobe will overwhelm the natural light and the automatic feature on the SB-E will do the compensating. In fact, if shooting such a strobe in total darkness you could experience underexposing as alluded to earlier. The thyrister circuit seems to assume some natural light to operate correctly. In the mines we had to overexpose as much as 2 stops when using Vivitar 283/285 in automatic mode and total darkness. If using manual mode on the studio strobe you might want to consider learning a bit about computing fill-flash ratios is shooting outside in bright light and shadow situations. Inside… not too much to worry about.

If you consider using any bulbs, remember that it’s just as easy to rig multiples as it is to rig a single bulb… almost. Plus. You’d be better situated to design lighting ratios that might not be as flat or as harsh as a single light. With LED, research color temperature impacts. I’ve never used LED lighting so don’t really know how they balance or how easy it is to compensate for with daylight film or how easy it is to get compensation filters. With incandescent, the science and craft aspects are rather well-known. I’d hope that by now there is good and authoritative knowledge on LED lighting, but never looked for it.

Congratulations on baby project #2!

BrianShaw · Apr 9, 2023

… and since you can experiment with your digital camera, also try softening the strobe lightly. Given your current thoughts, with the SB-E you’ll be in the middle of the range so a light softener, such as single ply of facial tissue covering the flash tube/reflector (but not the sensor) might give a pleasant effect.

ericdan · Apr 9, 2023

Well, the LED has a setting for temperature. I assume for Provia 100f I’ll set that to 5600 Kelvin?!

BrianShaw · Apr 9, 2023

ericdan said:
Well, the LED has a setting for temperature. I assume for Provia 100f I’ll set that to 5600 Kelvin?!

Oooooohhh... that's where I'd start with some tests. That, and some diffusion. Can't wait to hear what kind of exposure you can get at 100 ASA. Easily measured with an incident light meter. Nice option for your project!

koraks · Apr 9, 2023

ericdan said:
Anyways, the LED seems easy to control but doesn’t have enough power for a 100 speed film.

Camera on tripod? That would also make it slightly easier to replicate the exact same scene every time, wouldn't it?

ericdan said:
I assume for Provia 100f I’ll set that to 5600 Kelvin?!

Depends a bit on your taste. I'd personally start at 5000 and take it from there. 5600 would probably be a tad cool to my own taste, but I tend towards somewhat warmer images much of the time.

MattKing · Apr 9, 2023

BrianShaw said:
In fact, if shooting such a strobe in total darkness you could experience underexposing as alluded to earlier. The thyrister circuit seems to assume some natural light to operate correctly. In the mines we had to overexpose as much as 2 stops when using Vivitar 283/285 in automatic mode and total darkness. If using manual mode on the studio strobe you might want to consider learning a bit about computing fill-flash ratios is shooting outside in bright light and shadow situations. Inside… not too much to worry about.

Brian may very well be right here, but I've understood that the reason the auto-sensor equipped flashes under-expose in large, empty and really dark conditions is that they assume that there will be some contribution from light bouncing off nearby walls, floors and ceilings.
I used to factor this issue in when taking casual wedding photos at receptions in really large halls - particularly the "first dance".
That and outdoor, mid-summer evening weddings.
The bigger the light source plus reflector, the less the problem - to an extent.
I saw it more with Vivitar 283s than I did with my Metz 402s or Metz 60 series flashes - which may also relate to the assumptions built into the sensor technology. The Metz units were clearly designed with weddings in mind!
If at all possible, I would recommend photographing this project using bounced light and some sort of large reflector, like a wall or ceiling or a suspended sheet. If you use continuous light, you can consider employing slower shutter speeds. If you are using flash, you may need either lots of power or an opportunity to use multiple flash pops and an open shutter.

BrianShaw · Apr 9, 2023

Matt most likely has the better explanation. The mines were generally very dark with very dark walls (ribs) and roof (back). Not much light got reflected.

No matter the cause, it’s definitely sometimes considered.

ericdan · Apr 14, 2023

I have a tripod and light stands.
In order to keep things simple I’m thinking of a small speed light instead of the alien bee strobe.
Any manual flash should do right?
The issue is have is with the remote trigger now.
I want to take test shots using my canon digital camera. I know the triggers are all camera maker specific nowadays.
I need something that is canon specific and also connects to my pentax SLR via PC Sync.
Does anyone have a recommendation?

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