Proposal for a new IR film from J & C

[PeterB]

Dear J&C,

referring to the following news on your site

"This includes plans going forward right now to operate our own coating facility and producing high quality films in various formulations........
Infrared film with a true 820nm sensitivity and green blind so it can be handled under safelight and developed by inspection."

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=31



Do you have any more information on this Infrared film which you hope to produce? e.g. a preliminary specification or data sheet? I shoot HIE and would be very interested to see what you have in the pipeline.

regards
Peter

 

[Lotus M50]

It wouldn't seem that operating their own coating facility would make sense. With existing companies in Croatia, Hungary, Czech Republic and China (not to mention Germany, England and US) it's hard to imagine that having their own facility to manage (presumably in the US where they could effectively look after it) would be economically attractive compared to these existing facilities (with excess capacity) making runs of whatever J and C might want. Owning and operating your own film plant these days has to be a tough business, and probably (I'm guessing here) beyond the expertise of a retailer (no matter how good a retailer they are).

 

[Aggie]

It wouldn't seem that operating their own coating facility would make sense. With existing companies in Croatia, Hungary, Czech Republic and China (not to mention Germany, England and US) it's hard to imagine that having their own facility to manage (presumably in the US where they could effectively look after it) would be economically attractive compared to these existing facilities (with excess capacity) making runs of whatever J and C might want. Owning and operating your own film plant these days has to be a tough business, and probably (I'm guessing here) beyond the expertise of a retailer (no matter how good a retailer they are).

Are you turning this into another thread where you are going to second guess everything and say that J&C is crazy? That has already happened in another thread. The name of that thread is "Wonderful News" No one but John of J&C knows what is going on, that prompts him to take this bold step. He has his money on the line, and he must being a very smart man know what he is doing. For anyone else to sit back without the facts behind it all, to speculate is again just pure uninformed speculation. Being negative also has been a big factor in killing off many of our products. It's about time we got enthusiastic about a possible new product. After all we have been crying about the demise of many of our films, yet when a new one comes along, now we are saying it is too much that we already have enough? Give me a break and let John do his thing. It is his money and his reputation. He is smart enough to know the market better than we do.

 

[htmlguru4242]

I agree with Aggie here, this is not the place to discuss J&C's move. Yes, it's probably a risk on J&C's part, but we don't really know details, so let's not speculate, and, if you must, discuss it elsewhere.


What we DO know, though, is that this proposition is VERY exciting, and I certainly look forward to this facility starting.

And John, please DO divulge some info. as to this possible film!! An IR emulsion that can be developed under safelight would be great. (Actually, any IR emulsion would be great, as our options are shrinking ... and the current ones are SUPER expensive ...)

 

[Travis Nunn]

I don't understand it. We have someone (John) who is trying to better our selection of products and he gets second guessed for it. I'm sure he's done his due diligence and if he feels he can make a go of it, great. I'd love to see him succeed with this venture.

 

[fatboy22]

Any new IR films would be awesome! Go J&C! I will buy any IR film you produce! 120, 4x5

 

[Lotus M50]

Are you turning this into another thread where you are going to second guess everything and say that J&C is crazy? That has already happened in another thread. The name of that thread is "Wonderful News" No one but John of J&C knows what is going on, that prompts him to take this bold step. He has his money on the line, and he must being a very smart man know what he is doing. For anyone else to sit back without the facts behind it all, to speculate is again just pure uninformed speculation. Being negative also has been a big factor in killing off many of our products. It's about time we got enthusiastic about a possible new product. After all we have been crying about the demise of many of our films, yet when a new one comes along, now we are saying it is too much that we already have enough? Give me a break and let John do his thing. It is his money and his reputation. He is smart enough to know the market better than we do.

Ouch! Grumpy today, are we? ;-)

I haven't said that J and C is crazy, and have never said so before. They do what they do well. I'm just being realistic here. It's no secret that the film business is difficult these day -- that is not being negative that is just stating fact. It is also fact that there is a lot of excess capacity in film plants around the world -- and that we can expect that excess capacity to increase. A reasonable, objective analysis of the business would suggest that J and C could probably get virtually anything they need from existing suppliers without a very risk investment in owning and operating a production facility. It is also fairly obvious to anyone that running a production facility is quite a different animal to running a retail outlet for film supplies. In my opinion, investment in a film production facility is both a risky and costly undertaking even if someone gives them a facility for free -- and particularly so for anyone without experience in owning and operating such a facility. My concern is about having J and C around for the long term, and taking on unnecessary risks could jeopardize their long term viability -- and then where would we be? I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic. Let's not get worked-up about this and let our romantic visions of our craft to get in the way of reason.

I am also very enthusiastic about the new products they describe -- I am just apprehensive about the risk involved with them producing it themselves (especially when there are other sources available that can do what they want, and probably do it cheaper). It is sustaining the film business and sustaining the availablity of a wide range of products over the long term that is important.

There is a time in the future when it will be necessary to rescue production facilities to preserve a source of supply of product for our markets. That time is not now, and venturing in now is, in my opinon, unwise.

And yes, I could be wrong. There could be information I don't have, and the suituation in the market could indeed be worse than I believe. We want the same thing -- it is clear, however, that we differ on how to assure that over the long term.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I'm just being realistic here.

Well, I'm not grouchy today, but I can sure tell you that you live in the world of "if" and "supposing that." Let me quote a few things:

It's no secret that the film business is difficult these day-- that is not being negative that is just stating fact.

Granted, that is a fine premise. Let's see how far you can carry it.

A reasonable, objective analysis of the business would suggest that J and C could probably get virtually anything they need from existing suppliers without a very risk investment in owning and operating a production facility.

Here's a problem: your "objective" analysis is a hypothetical one. If you want to state fact here, you need to point to an actual analysis of the business world that suggests what you suggests. Can you see the problem: you suppose that an analysis would suggest something. Where are the facts??

In my opinion, investment in a film production facility is both a risky and costly undertaking...

Yep, I have opinions too. I think that I prefer yellow walls to blue walls in my bedroom. And I also think that piloting a jet is difficult. And I think that people shouldn't harm animals. Etc, ad nauseam. Opinions mean nothing more than reflect one's state of mind. They don't say much about the world.

I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic.

Your realism is based on a lot of suppositions, and on your own opinion. That is not realism.

And yes, I could be wrong. There could be information I don't have, and the suituation in the market could indeed be worse than I believe.

I'm glad you noticed that. It should be enough to help you gauge the value of your own assertions.

 

[Lotus M50]

Here's a problem: your "objective" analysis is a hypothetical one. If you want to state fact here, you need to point to an actual analysis of the business world that suggests what you suggests.

Yep, I have opinions too. Opinions mean nothing more than reflect one's state of mind. They don't say much about the world.

Your realism is based on a lot of suppositions, and on your own opinion. That is not realism.

Yes to some extent, but my "opinion" is also based on professional judgement and analysis. Opinion can and do say much about the world when they are informed by an understanding of the world and the way it works. I do market and industry analysis for a living as an economist and management consultant. What I have suggested in my "opinion" is probably not far from reality. For good or bad, what I have described results pretty much from the way these markets works. It may not be what we would like, but there are undeniable forces at work here that are understandable and predictable.

Should J and C choose to undertake to own and operate an film production facility, I wish them all the luck in the world. They will probably need it. It would be a admirable commitment that would be counter to economic realities and trends. Let's hope that they will be able to make a go of it over the long term and doesn't bankrupt them.

 

[Dave Parker]

Having Met John in person, I can say, he has probably done all the economic analysis he needs to ensure that his venture will be successful, John, does not seem to be a person that takes matters concerning his money lightly and willy nilly, he seems to be a pretty savy business man, with a lot on the ball, this venture is his and his money on the line...so speculation about various aspects of what can happen or will happen is pretty assumptive at this point in time.

Dave

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Yes to some extent, but my "opinion" is also based on professional judgement and analysis.

Yes, but you haven't put forth much proof of that in your argumentation. Your opinion is based on professional experience, but your claims are insubstantiated, and a priori. You may be right, but you need to prove so.

 

[Paul Sorensen]

Knowing nothing of the economics of the situation or John's expertise, other than what has been posted here, I can see that this could well be pretty risky. But so is opening a restaurant! I personally really want it to succeed, so I am going to keep my comments supportive.

It appears to me that there are some folks who are just inclined to comment that way about something like this. I guess it is sort of human nature combined with the nature of internet communications that bring this stuff out. I don't imagine that most of them would walk up to John at a party and tell him this.

Of course, there is also that one person who apparently hates John, but I don't necessarily see his fingerprints here. (Although perhaps someone is being subtle. )

 

[pentaxuser]

Dear J&C,

referring to the following news on your site

"This includes plans going forward right now to operate our own coating facility and producing high quality films in various formulations........
Infrared film with a true 820nm sensitivity and green blind so it can be handled under safelight and developed by inspection."

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=31
Do you have any more information on this Infrared film which you hope to produce? e.g. a preliminary specification or data sheet? I shoot HIE and would be very interested to see what you have in the pipeline.

regards
Peter

Well we are aware of some facts such as operating his own coating facility and a timescale of sorts" right now" as well as an IR film that can be handled under safelight.

All of the above suggests that these are actual plans and are beyond the stage of being simply wishes or visions.

It would be helpful if we could have a timescale which defines "right now" in more specific terms. Clearly his due diligence process in researching the capital resources, business opportunities and facilities for productione must be fairly advanced to use the kind of words he does on his site.

I understand the need for caution in commercial matters when things are at a speculative stage but the above words suggest that thing sare well in advance of this. If on the other hand things may still be at a fairly speculative stage then a comment to this effect would suffice. We'd have a better idea of a likely timescale and could refrain from any further threads which ask J&C to make statements which we have no right to expect at the stage reached in J&C's action plan.

I am sure we'd all be appreciative of anything which gives us actual concrete information.

pentaxuser

 

[Roger Hicks]

The question, surely, is how to get to 'our own coating facility'.

It seems deeply unlikely that anyone is going to set up a brand-new coating line, given the enormous overcapacity which is, as has been said, already available -- but it is entirely feasible to buy an existing coating line, provided you do not have to move it, which costs a substantial proportion of the price of a new line. I can think of two or possibly more lines that might be available in situ, with the building around them (this is always the difficult bit, which killed Sterling's paper line), and I'd be surprised if this were not the route envisioned.

Like others who speculate about this and claim some expertise, I could be wrong; but this seems a likely path. And those who admit they could be wrong are more often right than those who claim infallibility. Though not, of course, always so!

If they can do this, I shall give them every support in the magazines for which I write, in www.rogerandfrances.com, and elsewhere.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...It seems deeply unlikely that anyone is going to set up a brand-new coating line, given the enormous overcapacity which is, as has been said, already available -- but it is entirely feasible to buy an existing coating line, provided you do not have to move it, which costs a substantial proportion of the price of a new line. I can think of two or possibly more lines that might be available in situ, with the building around them...

Roger, John answered my question in another thread about the continent his facility will be located on by saying North America was his first choice and Europe was a backup. Do you know of any lines that might be available in either of those locations?

 

[Photo Engineer]

As has been hypothesized above, there is a lot going on in the field of B&W photography today.

No one knows the half of it, including myself, and I like to think I know a lot.

I agree with Dave. Having met John during our on-line chat from the Formulary, John strikes me as a person who knows what he is doing! Having met Dave, I believe that he is a good judge of people.

PE

 

[jim appleyard]

I'm looking forward to trying these new films, especially the ISO 25, and I wish John and all the staff at J&C the best of luck.

After all, what is life without challenge?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger, John answered my question in another thread about the continent his facility will be located on by saying North America was his first choice and Europe was a backup. Do you know of any lines that might be available in either of those locations?

Polaroid had several unused lines in the United States (assuming they have not been dismantled), including at least one that as far as I am aware was never even used, but I would be slightly surprised if it were possible to buy just one of these lines AND the building around it. And I can think of two in Europe, in different countries, one of which I am pretty sure is up for sale (again with building issues) and the other of which I'm not sure about.

Maybe he is planning to move a line after all. At that poiint there are lots of lines he could probably get for a song, maybe even 'free' (that is, to save the current owner the cost of dismantling) or at least for a more or less nominal sum.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[jandc]

Dear J&C,

referring to the following news on your site

Do you have any more information on this Infrared film which you hope to produce? e.g. a preliminary specification or data sheet? I shoot HIE and would be very interested to see what you have in the pipeline.

regards
Peter

Peter,

The concept of this kind of film is not new. Green blind medical IR films have been available for a long time. It's just never been done in film suitable for conventional photogaphy. However, we believe the concept makes sense and makes it easier on the photographer by being able to develop by inspection. We are aiming for a film that will provide an effective EI with filtration of at least 25 going out to 820nm. We are in the process of evaluating the various dyes available to make this happen and will then be proceeding to the testing phase where we will come up with the emulsion process.

Regarding the details of our plans to produce our own films commented on above. It should be pretty obvious that our competition would love to see this project fail. So it should be also pretty obvious that we're not going to give a lot of details at this early date. We have the expertise, technology and funding to make this happen. The concept that there is so much excess capacity out there that this project makes no sense or that it would be easier to contract with an existing manufacturer is flawed. Most of the excess capacity is based on large machines requiring large production runs. The exact opposite of what is required. Betting the future by contracting with an existing manufacturer who may not be there a year from now is also not an option. All I can say is that while there may be a lot of excess capacity out there right now, that will not be the case in the future as plants are closed and equipment torn down. In our view the future is about a modern line geared towards producing small runs efficiently.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

John,

I have not purchased much from you yet, because I'm emptying old stashes, or heaps rather, of materials. But you have an impressive array of product already, and your initiative of coating your own film is such a commendable one. Respect to you, sir, for undertaking such a project. In this day and age it is huge to get news like this. For myself, who doesn't have the time to monkey around with wet plates, a supply of film is essential.
I like this dynamic type of forward thinking instead of relying on old dinosaur methodologies. Gee, I wonder why it isn't just Kodak that's doing badly out there. Look at the other dinosaurs like Ford Motors and GM. They're doing terrible because of their ancient undynamic ways of operating with the times.
Great stuff, John. Once more - respect to you.

- Thom

 

[Roger Hicks]

Peter,

The concept of this kind of film is not new. Green blind medical IR films have been available for a long time. It's just never been done in film suitable for conventional photogaphy. However, we believe the concept makes sense and makes it easier on the photographer by being able to develop by inspection. We are aiming for a film that will provide an effective EI with filtration of at least 25 going out to 820nm. We are in the process of evaluating the various dyes available to make this happen and will then be proceeding to the testing phase where we will come up with the emulsion process.

Regarding the details of our plans to produce our own films commented on above. It should be pretty obvious that our competition would love to see this project fail. So it should be also pretty obvious that we're not going to give a lot of details at this early date. We have the expertise, technology and funding to make this happen. The concept that there is so much excess capacity out there that this project makes no sense or that it would be easier to contract with an existing manufacturer is flawed. Most of the excess capacity is based on large machines requiring large production runs. The exact opposite of what is required. Betting the future by contracting with an existing manufacturer who may not be there a year from now is also not an option. All I can say is that while there may be a lot of excess capacity out there right now, that will not be the case in the future as plants are closed and equipment torn down. In our view the future is about a modern line geared towards producing small runs efficiently.

Dear John,

I'm not entirely sure that there have never been 'green gap' general-purpose IR films, but you almost certainly know more than I.

My only point about excess capacity was that building a new line from scratch looks like doing it the hard way.

If you can indeed create a modern line geared towards producing small runs efficiently, you can rely on full support in the press from Frances Schultz and myself.

Will you be at photokina? We just received our press passes and our hotel has been booked since the last show.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[jandc]

Dear John,

I'm not entirely sure that there have never been 'green gap' general-purpose IR films, but you almost certainly know more than I.

My only point about excess capacity was that building a new line from scratch looks like doing it the hard way.

If you can indeed create a modern line geared towards producing small runs efficiently, you can rely on full support in the press from Frances Schultz and myself.

Will you be at photokina? We just received our press passes and our hotel has been booked since the last show.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger,

Yes we will be at Photokina. We have a booth there. I'd love to get together and talk.

John

 

[copake_ham]

Peter,

The concept of this kind of film is not new. Green blind medical IR films have been available for a long time. It's just never been done in film suitable for conventional photogaphy. However, we believe the concept makes sense and makes it easier on the photographer by being able to develop by inspection. We are aiming for a film that will provide an effective EI with filtration of at least 25 going out to 820nm. We are in the process of evaluating the various dyes available to make this happen and will then be proceeding to the testing phase where we will come up with the emulsion process.

Regarding the details of our plans to produce our own films commented on above. It should be pretty obvious that our competition would love to see this project fail. So it should be also pretty obvious that we're not going to give a lot of details at this early date. We have the expertise, technology and funding to make this happen. The concept that there is so much excess capacity out there that this project makes no sense or that it would be easier to contract with an existing manufacturer is flawed. Most of the excess capacity is based on large machines requiring large production runs. The exact opposite of what is required. Betting the future by contracting with an existing manufacturer who may not be there a year from now is also not an option. All I can say is that while there may be a lot of excess capacity out there right now, that will not be the case in the future as plants are closed and equipment torn down. In our view the future is about a modern line geared towards producing small runs efficiently.

John,

Reading between the lines a bit I think you have identified a viable business plan. Film photography is undergoing a permanent shift from being the dominant (and one time "sole") image making technology to becoming a niche industry.

Large players in the industry are unable to profitably adjust to the reduced volume of total film sales because their entire production capacity was built for a different level of economy of scale than exists now or in the future.

As your production plans move forward I would also suggest that you begin to consider new avenues of distribution. I am particularly suggesting that film photography supplies and equipment be migrated from the traditional sales venues (which are disappearing anyway) to more niche marketers such as art supply houses. These need not be "small time" either. For example, a major arts & crafts supply marketer such as "Michaels" might well become a vendor for film photography supplies etc.

But most of all, I salute you for your commitment to film photography and recognizing that it has a future, albeit a very different one than it once enjoyed.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger,

Yes we will be at Photokina. We have a booth there. I'd love to get together and talk.

John

Great. I'll look forward to it.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[kjsphoto]

It wouldn't seem that operating their own coating facility would make sense. With existing companies in Croatia, Hungary, Czech Republic and China (not to mention Germany, England and US) it's hard to imagine that having their own facility to manage (presumably in the US where they could effectively look after it) would be economically attractive compared to these existing facilities (with excess capacity) making runs of whatever J and C might want. Owning and operating your own film plant these days has to be a tough business, and probably (I'm guessing here) beyond the expertise of a retailer (no matter how good a retailer they are).

If I had listened to everyone I would not be making bag as I was told it was a stupid idea and no one would buy them.

I say to John, go for it and listen to no one. I for one stand behind anyone that tires to make film more available and I applaud him for doing it as well. There is a huge market and many will buy it.

Furthermore, whose business is it anyway to say what he should or should not do? Unless you are paying his bills I don’t think you have a right to say anything about what he or anyone wants to do nor question their decisions...

And lastly I don’t believe he asked for anyone opinion on the subject matter either.