Properly exposing B@W film for snow scenes

[WILL WORK FOR FILM]

We are very close to having a snow covered landscape here in beautiful South Western Idaho and I am looking forward to trying my hand at Black and white landscape photography with my Nikon F4 and Tri-x 400. I have read several online tutorials and think I have a handle on the basic principals of properly exposing for a mostly white scene, but would like to get a few personal opinions on the matter.

Scenario:

-A cold partly cloudy day with lots of fresh snow (common here). Mostly high desert vegetation and a far off tree or two.

-Nikon F4, tri-x at ISO 400 and maybe a yellow #12 filter to lighten the foliage and possibly bring out cloud detail.

-Based on what I have read, I might "spot meter" the bright white snow and use exposure compensation (+1 to +1-1/2) to avoid under exposing the snow since the meter will consider the metered point Zone 5.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

[Leigh B]

Snow is a highlight in a scene, just like any other scene.

You expose based on ambient illumination.

You might decrease the exposure slightly, perhaps 1/2 stop to a full stop, depending on the details.

- Leigh

 

[Alan9940]

I would suggest doing a little empirical testing. Most meters in the world want to read or average neutral gray (Zone V in Zone terminology.) The reason I say "most" is because not all meters are set to the same baseline; some read 18% reflectance as middle gray, while others read 36%. For example, I have to set my Sekonic L-558 ISO to half that of my re-calibrated Pentax Digital Spot because one reads a stop higher than the other.

Generally, you want snow in sunlight or overcast even illumination to appear white with detail; snow under shade conditions is, of course, slightly darker. Therefore, if spot metering sunlit snow you'd want 2 - 3 stops more exposure depending on desired details in the snow. This will place your snow tonality in the Zone VII to Zone VIII range which is where it should be. All of this is depending, of course. If, for example, a field of snow is under total overcast conditions you may want to place the snow value on Zone VII to avoid it looking too white. Your choice.

Of course, a lot of what I'm saying here assumes you've done some basic testing of your film and development. That is, you know your personal EI and what development time will translate into Zone VIII tonal values in the print. If this is foreign talk to you, then I'd suggest setting your F4 on matrix metering and doing some bracketing.

Good luck! Winter is my favorite time to photograph. Yeah, I'm an oddball!!

 

[Jim Jones]

On sunlit days I like a red filter to increase the contrast between highlights and shadow in the snow.

 

[Alan Klein]

Bracket your shots and keep notes as to aperture and shutter speed, filters used etc and the readings you took on your meter. Then do a contact print to compare to your notes. That will help you on subsequent rolls. Good luck.

 

[Vaughn]

This is just a favorite snow scene of mine. A white sheep skull in the snow...I almost stepped on the skull as I was getting a bit snow-blind and had gone to wearing my darkcloth over my head and looking thru a small slit. Upper Mono Lake Basin.

On my Pentax Digital meter, the darkest tones read 14, sun on the skull read 16 to 17, and the sun on the snow 18. I set the meter for the 4x5 TMax100 at 16, but then added another stop of light to account for some bellows extention (and a touch more exposure). It was f64 at 1/4 second, no filter.

That would be a little more exposure than what you were suggesting- about a +2.5 stop 'compensation' compared to your 1 to 1.5 stop increase. It seems to work out the best for me. About 30% more develpment given to bump up the contrast a little. A pleasure to print (16x20) -- and while the image may not show it on the computer screen, there is a fine texture and detail in the snow, while keeping its brilliance. It was printed on Gallerie, glossy grade 3 in Dektol, then selenium toned...keeps the snow looking cold! The selenium took a little of the paper's very slight warmth and neutralized it. A condenser enlarger (D5-XL) was used.

I found that TMax100 (w/o filter) responds to blue similarily to a conventional film with a yellow filter...so I rarely use one with TMax.

 

[paul ron]

^ +1

 

[WILL WORK FOR FILM]

I would suggest doing a little empirical testing. Most meters in the world want to read or average neutral gray (Zone V in Zone terminology.) The reason I say "most" is because not all meters are set to the same baseline; some read 18% reflectance as middle gray, while others read 36%. For example, I have to set my Sekonic L-558 ISO to half that of my re-calibrated Pentax Digital Spot because one reads a stop higher than the other.

Generally, you want snow in sunlight or overcast even illumination to appear white with detail; snow under shade conditions is, of course, slightly darker. Therefore, if spot metering sunlit snow you'd want 2 - 3 stops more exposure depending on desired details in the snow. This will place your snow tonality in the Zone VII to Zone VIII range which is where it should be. All of this is depending, of course. If, for example, a field of snow is under total overcast conditions you may want to place the snow value on Zone VII to avoid it looking too white. Your choice.

Of course, a lot of what I'm saying here assumes you've done some basic testing of your film and development. That is, you know your personal EI and what development time will translate into Zone VIII tonal values in the print. If this is foreign talk to you, then I'd suggest setting your F4 on matrix metering and doing some bracketing.

Good luck! Winter is my favorite time to photograph. Yeah, I'm an oddball!!

This is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for. Often time articles tend to over simplify a subject that is too dynamic to be placed in a nutshell. I am obviously very new to this and have spent more time reading about it than doing it. I do understand the Zone System (reading Ansel's books) but have not yet determined an exposure index for my film/camera combination. I realize that there are probably better film choices for this scenario, but have decided not to confuse the situation by changing things up. I am also in the process of learning to develop my film at home.

That being said, is there a simplified means of obtaining my EI using just the camera? Bracketing would likely get me ballpark. Would most consider that good enough?

 

[Alan9940]

That being said, is there a simplified means of obtaining my EI using just the camera? Bracketing would likely get me ballpark. Would most consider that good enough?

There are many methods for determining your own personal EI for your meter/camera combo; perhaps the simplist IMO was advocated by Fred Picker in his little "Zone VI Workshop" book. That said, you're in luck using Tri-X because in my experience that film has always tested out to be at or nearly at box speed. Therefore, you'd probably be safe using 400.

What I'd suggest doing is shooting a roll of the subjects and lighting conditions you anticipate working with using ISO settings both above and below 400. Keep notes. Develop that test roll and see which EI provides the shadow detail you want. Load up and shoot your snow using whatever method you choose to ensure white snow. If the high values are too blocked up, adjust your development time, accordingly.

That's about it. You can derive the info you need through empirical methods it just takes a little longer.

Have fun!

 

[tedr1]

Bracketing is easy with 35mm, just be sure to keep careful notes for each frame.

In case you are new to 35mm it almost never happens that the frame numbers on the negative align with the exposed frames. I used to start the film with a very long exposure to produce a black frame, and my notes for exposure conditions started counting at the black frame.

 

[WILL WORK FOR FILM]

So by bracketing using the ISO film speed dial, not the exposure compensation dial (adjusting shutter speed) I will better understand the true EI?
At that point would I need to shoot at ISO 200, 400, 800 and then develop for ISO 400?

 

[Karl K]

Open landscapes with pure white snow usually require a +2 or +2.5 f/stop exposure increase to compensate for your light meter's reading.
Your light meter, if it is built-in, wants to make the snow 18% gray. You want the snow almost pure white. So, you must increase (add more light) to the exposure. Try 2 stops if there's an open sky. If the sun is very bright, try 2.5 stops. That usually is sufficient.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Snow is a highlight in a scene, just like any other scene.

You expose based on ambient illumination.

You might decrease the exposure slightly, perhaps 1/2 stop to a full stop, depending on the details.

- Leigh

great advice very simple but too the point

 

[Vaughn]

great advice very simple but too the point

Except that measuring the ambient light values with a reflective light meter (in-camera) is not a straight forward operation -- unless I mis-understand Leigh's point.

 

[WILL WORK FOR FILM]

But... the question still stands. If I were to bracket exposures as suggested earlier should I do so using the ISO dial (film speed) or exposure compensation (shutter speed)? Or does it matter since the outcome would likely be the same if the camera is properly calibrated?

 

[MartinCrabtree]

Trying just about everything posted on this page would be a great way to learn the performance of a particular film/camera/lens. Unless you're shooting for someone else's vision (read $$$) go for it and enjoy the happy accidents.

 

[swchris]

But... the question still stands. If I were to bracket exposures as suggested earlier should I do so using the ISO dial (film speed) or exposure compensation (shutter speed)? Or does it matter since the outcome would likely be the same if the camera is properly calibrated?

Doesn't matter, the outcome is the same.

It you shoot manual, just increase or decrease the exposure by changing aperture or time. If you shoot in automatic mode change the ISO or the exposure compensation. In this case it might be less error prone to change the exposure compensation, because you might forget to set the film speed back to normal. If you forget to change the exp. compensation to "nothing" you might notice it later and correct it, but not so with the film speed. But this is just me, after loading the film and setting it speed I rarely double check if the set speed matches the film I remember to have loaded....

 

[frank]

With a reflective meter, meter over all scene and add 3 stops.

With an incident meter, use the recommended settings.

Easy-peasy.

 

[Sirius Glass]

-Based on what I have read, I might "spot meter" the bright white snow and use exposure compensation (+1 to +1-1/2) to avoid under exposing the snow since the meter will consider the metered point Zone 5.

Does this sound reasonable?

Yes or you could use the spot meter to meter either people's faces or what you want to be the neutral gray.

 

[FujiLove]

I use an incident meter for almost everything and I rarely have a problem with exposure.

>> Slide film: take a 'normal' incident reading (i.e. just point the dome towards the camera from the subject). But engage brain in case the final image will work better with more detail in the shadows and the highlights blown. In which case add 0.5 to 1 stop or get the meter into the critical shadows.

>> Negative film: the same, but with the meter held in the shadows (or shaded by the hand if you can't get in the shadows). Brain can generally be disengaged ;-)

Click. Done. Next.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

In my experience, snow is 'often' the highlight of a scene but it's just as often the scene itself if the dark areas are of little interest. What I mean by that is, often the entire 'usable' scene is all very white (to the eyes/brain). However, when mixed down to what looks best in print, much of that 'white' might look much better printed as dark gray because the contrast within that 'white scene' may best be portrayed that way. What we 'see' as an all white scene is often far more contrasty than our brains perceive it to be. And even if it's a fairly low contrast all-white scene, it may better be made so with decreased exposure (less or no exposure compensation) and (often) increased development.

EDIT: This was at the very top of a google search: http://www.boostyourphotography.com/2014/01/snow.html

 

[Alan9940]

@WILL WORK FOR FILM - If you're just testing for exposure and development as I've suggested above, then I'd strongly recommend setting your ISO dial to 400 (for Tri-X), setting your camera on manual mode, then use either aperture or shutter speed to "bracket" the ISO. One stop up/down using aperture or shutter speed equals on stop up/down with ISO. For example, let's say your first exposure is 1/125 sec @ f/16 with the ISO set to 400, opening the aperture one full stop would equate to ISO 200 film speed; opening two full stops on aperture gives you ISO 100, etc. I'm sure you can interpolate the numbers. If you desire a bit more accuracy, open/close the aperture in 1/2 or 1/3 stops. Doing 1/2 stops is not mathematically correct, but it's close enough.

@Sirius Glass - if we're talking Caucasian skin tone, I always expose that at Zone VI; or, 1 stop over neutral grey. That and a few bucks won't get ya a latte at Starbucks!

 

[pentaxuser]

. I realize that there are probably better film choices for this scenario.

That being said, is there a simplified means of obtaining my EI using just the camera? Bracketing would likely get me ballpark. Would most consider that good enough?

Can you say why you believe there are better film choices for the snow scene scenario than the one you mention?

On establishing your EI and optimum development time then I'd have thought that bracketing the kind of snow scene you mention might be fraught with pitfalls. At the very least I'd try and choose a scene with the full range of zones. Some highlights are obviously important but a snow scene is hardly the most balanced for the purposes of establishing film EI. Remember from the scene those shadow areas that you want to have detail in and then use the bracketed film speed which shows that detail as your personal EI.

pentaxuser

 

[frank]

If your goal is to establish a personal EI with your gear, choose a less extreme scene.

(All this is over-thinking, IMO. It's not that complicated, but some really enjoy exposure testing, and if that's what makes you happy, go for it.))

 

[MattKing]

If your goal is to establish a personal EI with your gear, choose a less extreme scene.

+1
If you use a snow scene for that purpose, you will be in danger of determining a personal EI for the specific purpose of using with snow scenes only. Which may be useful for you, but for most of us ....

The most important general thing to remember is that any testing and calibrating you do should be oriented toward obtaining high quality prints. Prints that include snow or other really important and really predominant bright areas are kind of special cases.